Production rates?

U¿ytkownik "smjmitchell" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci u...
Janusz,

Could I ask if you know how many hours it takes the SZD factory to build a
Jantar or any of the other composite gliders they produce ? Where do the
composite materials (fiber, resin and core) come from, the Easter bloc or
from the West ???

Steve

Hello Steve,

I have sent an email to a person who might know something on the amount of
working hours needed to produce a Jantar or Junior. When I'll get a reply,
I'll send it here immediately. If we talk of the materials used, I think
they may be produced locally at least some of them, but it has no serious
importance I believe as these materials first have to be certifed ones, and
if they wouldn't have met the requirements, they wouldn't appear in the
workshop. Second, since we got rid of the communism and the hand-directed
economy and now we have a free market competition, the worse would lose
simply. Third, many of these materials may be produced locally under all
round the world known brands just like the Bayer and if they were worse, it
would expose this brand's reputation on a serious risk, and they wouldn't do
that. They simply must be same good as those used in the German gliders,
which are often finished with cheaper gelcoat instead of the crack-resistant
polyurethane paint which is a standard finish in case of SZD gliders.

With kindest regards,

--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl

U¿ytkownik "Janusz Kesik" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci ...
U¿ytkownik "smjmitchell" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci u...
Janusz,

Could I ask if you know how many hours it takes the SZD factory to build
a
Jantar or any of the other composite gliders they produce ? Where do
the
composite materials (fiber, resin and core) come from, the Easter bloc
or
from the West ???

Okay, now I know that the materials, for 99% all of them are made in the
Western Europe. When I'll get the information on workhours, I'll post it
here.


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl

OK thanks ...

I am just trying to get a feel for which factors influence the lower cost of
the Polish built sailplane. Obviously it is not materials. Presumably mostly
labour ......

The other thing I am curious about is certification costs in Poland ... I
assume that the original certification authority for the SZD gliders is the
Polish Airworthiness Authority ??? (BTW what is this called) Is this
correct ? Do the Polish Authorities try to recover costs by charging
applicants to process glider certification projects or is this a service
provided by the government gratis (free) ... certification costs are of
course a major issue in most other countries. Usually airworthiness
authorities bill for each hour spent which can rapidly up.

What is the procedure for the certification of a glider in Poland ? For
instance can you give use an approximate outline of the process that the
PW-5 another recent certification project would have gone through ...

Does Poland have any bilateral agreements to facilitate certification in
other countries once polish certification is achieved ?

Who controls the production of the gliders ... does Poland have a system
like the FAA Production Certificate where the government airworthiness
authority is hands off or to they still inspect each and every glider
produced prior to issue of an airworthiness certificate.




"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...

U¿ytkownik "Janusz Kesik" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci ...
U¿ytkownik "smjmitchell" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci u...
Janusz,

Could I ask if you know how many hours it takes the SZD factory to
build
a
Jantar or any of the other composite gliders they produce ? Where do
the
composite materials (fiber, resin and core) come from, the Easter bloc
or
from the West ???

Okay, now I know that the materials, for 99% all of them are made in the
Western Europe. When I'll get the information on workhours, I'll post it
here.


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl

U¿ytkownik "smjmitchell" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci u...

I am just trying to get a feel for which factors influence the lower cost
of
the Polish built sailplane. Obviously it is not materials. Presumably
mostly
labour ......

Presumlbly yes, but not only. There are much more factors that make Poland a
good place to move the production, or moreover services like accounting,
call centres (generally so-called back office). Just consider a few:

1. Low labour cost, that we had made clear previously. By the way I believe
that the SZD staff is still here, and could be contacted and hired again by
the production of gliders or other glassfibre products, as they're skilled
and know the technology. Add to this lower cost of property, office space
rent (e.g 8$/month in a A class office building in Breslau (Wroclaw) - one
of the most dynamic cities).
http://paiz.gov.pl/index/?id=f457c54...ecee47145a72c0

2. Well educated workforce with lots of university/polytechnic university
graduates on the job market. There are almost two million students now in
the UNIs, just like at this faculty:
http://www.pwr.wroc.pl/eng/files/w_chemia.htm

3. Lower than in the Western Europe "additional cost of labour". I mean
social security fees etc. We also work more hours than e.g. Germans. When
they enjoy the 36h/week, we work average for some 48-50h/week. A Boston
Consulting Group report linked below:
http://paiz.gov.pl/index/?id=b2dd140...087a29b2e66034

4. LOTS of tax incentives. First, the 19% flat rate corporate income tax:
http://paiz.gov.pl/index/?id=a8f15ed...71943adc8015cf

Plus... add to this lots of other incentives in Special Economic Zones /
Economic Activity Zones, just like these:

http://paiz.gov.pl/index/?id=43dd49b...3e94468ff8df1e

http://www.ksse.com.pl/index-eng.html

http://www.invest-park.com.pl/

http://leszno.pl/leszno2/gospodarka/...al_zone_en.ppt
By the way, this one is located at Leszno, which is well known in soaring
community.


The other thing I am curious about is certification costs in Poland ... I
assume that the original certification authority for the SZD gliders is
the
Polish Airworthiness Authority ??? (BTW what is this called) Is this
correct ? Do the Polish Authorities try to recover costs by charging
applicants to process glider certification projects or is this a service
provided by the government gratis (free) ... certification costs are of
course a major issue in most other countries. Usually airworthiness
authorities bill for each hour spent which can rapidly up.

Well, it is hard question to me, as I don't have much experience with
airworthiness authority, but I believe it's still the producer to make the
flight tests, which are then base to the issuing of the certificate. So I
believe this is still included in the cost.
The body which is issuing certificates is Urzad Lotnictwa Cywilnego:
http://www.ulc.gov.pl


What is the procedure for the certification of a glider in Poland ? For
instance can you give use an approximate outline of the process that the
PW-5 another recent certification project would have gone through ...

I don't have such an document, but I believe is has to comply with JAR-22
requirements.

Does Poland have any bilateral agreements to facilitate certification in
other countries once polish certification is achieved ?

I belive yes, but this is rather a kind of question which should be asked
either to ULC, or one of the producers, just like the SZD, or Marganski
works.

Who controls the production of the gliders ... does Poland have a system
like the FAA Production Certificate where the government airworthiness
authority is hands off or to they still inspect each and every glider
produced prior to issue of an airworthiness certificate.

It's for 99% hands off, they're just sending the papers, and make the maiden
flight.

Finally I got a reply from one of the guys who are well oriented in the
production of gliders, and they say that the production of Jantar Standard
2, of the late 12'th serie involved some 760hrs of work. It was in 1982, so
I believe some things have changed. Take the worker's productivity and newer
materials for instance.
On the other hand, I have been said that production of Junior takes only two
days, so the production process could be completed in one day (involving two
working shifts) topping at some 150 a year.

The materials used now are mostly made by Interglass and Conticell,
Schneufler L-285 resin, however still the locally produced Epidian 52&53
resins can be used instead which are much more affordable.

With kindest regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl


"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...

U¿ytkownik "Janusz Kesik" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci ...
U¿ytkownik "smjmitchell" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci u...
Janusz,

Could I ask if you know how many hours it takes the SZD factory to
build
a
Jantar or any of the other composite gliders they produce ? Where
do
the
composite materials (fiber, resin and core) come from, the Easter
bloc
or
from the West ???

Janusz Kesik wrote:

3. Lower than in the Western Europe "additional cost of labour". I mean
social security fees etc. We also work more hours than e.g. Germans. When
they enjoy the 36h/week, we work average for some 48-50h/week.

Don't be sure about this A worked in several countries, Germany also
but I can't see this difference. Oh sorry, China was a different story...

/Janos

Uzytkownik "Janos Bauer" napisal w wiadomosci
...
Janusz Kesik wrote:

3. Lower than in the Western Europe "additional cost of labour". I mean
social security fees etc. We also work more hours than e.g. Germans.
When
they enjoy the 36h/week, we work average for some 48-50h/week.

Don't be sure about this A worked in several countries, Germany also
but I can't see this difference. Oh sorry, China was a different story...

I believe it depends on a certain company. And China... well that's a really
different story, also that its workforce mostly comprises of low qualified
workers who have to be taught a lot (which also costs a lot and takes a lot
of time).

Regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl

"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message ...
U¿ytkownik "smjmitchell" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci u...
Janusz,

Could I ask if you know how many hours it takes the SZD factory to build a
Jantar or any of the other composite gliders they produce ? Where do the
composite materials (fiber, resin and core) come from, the Easter bloc or
from the West ???

Steve

Hello Steve,

I have sent an email to a person who might know something on the amount of
working hours needed to produce a Jantar or Junior. When I'll get a reply,
I'll send it here immediately. If we talk of the materials used, I think
they may be produced locally at least some of them, but it has no serious
importance I believe as these materials first have to be certifed ones, and
if they wouldn't have met the requirements, they wouldn't appear in the
workshop. Second, since we got rid of the communism and the hand-directed
economy and now we have a free market competition, the worse would lose
simply. Third, many of these materials may be produced locally under all
round the world known brands just like the Bayer and if they were worse, it
would expose this brand's reputation on a serious risk, and they wouldn't do
that. They simply must be same good as those used in the German gliders,
which are often finished with cheaper gelcoat instead of the crack-resistant
polyurethane paint which is a standard finish in case of SZD gliders.

With kindest regards,

I think most people are already tired of your idiotic monologues
Mr.Kesik, give it a break.

"Libelle lover" wrote in message
om...
"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...
snip

I think most people are already tired of your idiotic monologues
Mr.Kesik, give it a break.

Speak for yourself, and please keep your rude insults off this group. Mr.
Kesik is a regular contributor to this newsgroup and I, at least for one,
find his contributions interesting and useful. If you don't like them, put
him on your blocked senders list and give the rest of us a break.

I have been enjoying the discussion about the dynamics of construction
in other countries such as Poland. I am curious about the "Man hours"
it takes to build a SZD glider. The history and details of the company
I find quite interesting and educational.

The negative and disrespectful comment posted earlier was the only
part of the discussion I could do without. But then again, I thought
reading the post was optional.

Hey Jansz did you find out the amount of time it takes to build one?

Steve

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:52:06 -0700, "Michael McNulty"
wrote:


"Libelle lover" wrote in message
. com...
"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...
snip

I think most people are already tired of your idiotic monologues
Mr.Kesik, give it a break.

Speak for yourself, and please keep your rude insults off this group. Mr.
Kesik is a regular contributor to this newsgroup and I, at least for one,
find his contributions interesting and useful. If you don't like them, put
him on your blocked senders list and give the rest of us a break.

Hi Janusz,

Keep us informed about polish gliders&manufacturer! Don't care about
comments like this. Yes, your patriotism can be felt from your posts but
nothing wrong with it.
Regards,

/Janos

ps: I also tried paragliding and hanggliding but soaring seems to the
real solution for me


Libelle lover wrote:

I think most people are already tired of your idiotic monologues
Mr.Kesik, give it a break.