Production rates?

Janusz:
Thank you for your continued input. Your contributions to this thread are
appreciated. Please ignore the "Ugly American" comment (if it was an
American). I guess all countries have a few rude and inconsiderate types,
even in the soaring fraternity.
Ed Byars

"Janos Bauer" wrote in message
...
Hi Janusz,

Keep us informed about polish gliders&manufacturer! Don't care about
comments like this. Yes, your patriotism can be felt from your posts but
nothing wrong with it.
Regards,

/Janos

ps: I also tried paragliding and hanggliding but soaring seems to the
real solution for me


Libelle lover wrote:

I think most people are already tired of your idiotic monologues
Mr.Kesik, give it a break.

I don't care such comments, and well, the most funny is that I wouldn't have
noticed that post, if someone hasn't commented that. It looks like this guy
has withdrawn his 'not so nice' posting from the server sooner than I did
retrieved fresh postings from my news server. Anyway, thanks for the support
for all of You my gliding friends.

Finally, as asked I feel obliged to deliver the final reply that the total
working hours involved in complete (from the first minute of work, to the
very end of finish) in case of production of the SZD-55, total at 1400
hours. So, well... it's a huge amount, and the lower cost of labour helps so
much indeed to keep it's price still 4500Euros lower than the *predicted*
price of the LS-4 which is going to re-enter production according to the
news I have red on the R.A.S.

With kindest regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl



U¿ytkownik "Ed Byars" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
. ..
Janusz:
Thank you for your continued input. Your contributions to this thread are
appreciated. Please ignore the "Ugly American" comment (if it was an
American). I guess all countries have a few rude and inconsiderate types,
even in the soaring fraternity.
Ed Byars

"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...
I don't care such comments, and well, the most funny is that I wouldn't
have
noticed that post, if someone hasn't commented that. It looks like this
guy
has withdrawn his 'not so nice' posting from the server sooner than I did
retrieved fresh postings from my news server. Anyway, thanks for the
support
for all of You my gliding friends.

Finally, as asked I feel obliged to deliver the final reply that the total
working hours involved in complete (from the first minute of work, to the
very end of finish) in case of production of the SZD-55, total at 1400
hours. So, well... it's a huge amount, and the lower cost of labour helps
so
much indeed to keep it's price still 4500Euros lower than the *predicted*
price of the LS-4 which is going to re-enter production according to the
news I have red on the R.A.S.

With kindest regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl

Janusz, thank you for the information. It is very interesting.

Hypothetically, if the very skilled workers require 1400 hours to produce a
SZD-55, then there must be opportunities for production engineers to reduce
that time.

If process and materials improvements could slash 700 hours from the
building time, the most if not all the glider cost and availability issues
could be resolved. This is where bright people could make a real
contribution to the sport.

Of course, these process and materials improvements would have to work at
both small and large production numbers so that if a small production run
glider became very popular, the production could ramp up to meet demand.

Bill Daniels

Hypothetically, if the very skilled workers require 1400 hours to produce
a
SZD-55, then there must be opportunities for production engineers to
reduce
that time.

As we see, it depends a lot on the type of sailplane which is being build.
When we compare that to the 760 hours needed to complete the Jantar Standard
3 this is the slashing of the half You're writing of. And... cosidering that
these 760hrs has been counted in 1982yr., I believe without any problem it
could be reduced to let's say 600 hours. When we compare the cost of the
hour in Germany (~30Euro/h), and in Poland (~2.5-3.0Euro/h). That makes a
huge difference.

Then... add to this a low-cost workforce, and this may reduce the prices a
lot. The molds for th Jantars are still available, and I believe the
producer would be happy to respond an inquiry how much could cost a single
glider when let's say an order for a few pieces would be placed. I am sure
it would be veeeery attractive.

Regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl

Janusz,

Thanks for the information on build time hours. This is very useful
information. I think it illustrates that labour is where we need to work at
reducing the cost. One many year is approximately 2000 hrs .. actually more
like 1700-1800 when holidays etc are considered. So 1400 hrs is a lot.

What I am now wondering is what the difference is between the Jantar
Standard and the SZD-55 ... I need to do some research to answer this for
myself because I am not that familiar with the later. 760 to 1400 hrs is a
big difference. However perhaps you have some comments on this. Are the
materials and tooling similar ? Are the tolerances tighter on the later
model ? Perhaps it is a question of the volume being produced ?

Thanks again,

Steve


"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...
Hypothetically, if the very skilled workers require 1400 hours to
produce
a
SZD-55, then there must be opportunities for production engineers to
reduce
that time.

As we see, it depends a lot on the type of sailplane which is being build.
When we compare that to the 760 hours needed to complete the Jantar
Standard
3 this is the slashing of the half You're writing of. And... cosidering
that
these 760hrs has been counted in 1982yr., I believe without any problem it
could be reduced to let's say 600 hours. When we compare the cost of the
hour in Germany (~30Euro/h), and in Poland (~2.5-3.0Euro/h). That makes a
huge difference.

Then... add to this a low-cost workforce, and this may reduce the prices a
lot. The molds for th Jantars are still available, and I believe the
producer would be happy to respond an inquiry how much could cost a single
glider when let's say an order for a few pieces would be placed. I am sure
it would be veeeery attractive.

Regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl

U¿ytkownik "smjmitchell" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci u...
Janusz,

Thanks for the information on build time hours. This is very useful
information. I think it illustrates that labour is where we need to work
at
reducing the cost. One many year is approximately 2000 hrs .. actually
more
like 1700-1800 when holidays etc are considered. So 1400 hrs is a lot.

That is more interesting, is that the old wooden gliders were even more time
consuming. When You look insede let's say the Bocian's wing, You'll see
thousands of "matches" inside which had to be glued prior to covering the
wings' surfaces. Glass is a much step forward in reducing the cost.

What I am now wondering is what the difference is between the Jantar
Standard and the SZD-55 ... I need to do some research to answer this for
myself because I am not that familiar with the later. 760 to 1400 hrs is a
big difference. However perhaps you have some comments on this.

I shink that Jantar has much less complicated design than the SZD-55.
Consider only the wingtip. Jantar's one is straight and there seems to be
much less work required. In case of the '55', it is tapering and, moreover
it doesn't do this in a Schempp-Hirth way (just like the Discus') where it
is divided into three or four legs, but it tapers continously. It is surely
the most perfect option when looking at it from the aerodynamics point of
view, but it also requires way more work than in Discus, not to mention the
Jantar. Also the interior of the Jantar wing seems to have a simplier
design.

Note also what I was writing of earlier, that the SZD was able to shorten
the production of the Junior to just two days when using the two shift per
day system. It has also some 20% less elements than Jantar. Maybe there's a
way out - simple designs which won't be too sophisticated, but still will
give a chance to fly for as wide spectrum of people at it is possible. [And
the PW-5 fits this definition quite well]. For me I don't want a racer, I
just want to fly for fun. A few hours of wandering around 10-20 miles away
from the airport, or some ridge would be enough for me, still being heaps of
fun. Flying for fun, not racing.

Are the
materials and tooling similar ?

Materials then were mostly locally produced, like the Epidian resins. Glass
cloth too I believe. (Jantar)

Are the tolerances tighter on the later
model ?

I don't think so. More probably it was simplier design.

Perhaps it is a question of the volume being produced ?

Possibly yes, however that wouldn't influence the number of workhours (with
exception of the prototypes where the hours are circa doubled). The savings
may come from sharing the fixed costs (like the production site rental or
the monthly social security fees) by a larger number of products (in whose
price these costs had to be included).

Regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl

"smjmitchell" wrote in message
u...
Janusz,

Thanks for the information on build time hours. This is very useful
information. I think it illustrates that labour is where we need to work
at
reducing the cost. One many year is approximately 2000 hrs .. actually
more
like 1700-1800 when holidays etc are considered. So 1400 hrs is a lot.

What I am now wondering is what the difference is between the Jantar
Standard and the SZD-55 ... I need to do some research to answer this for
myself because I am not that familiar with the later. 760 to 1400 hrs is a
big difference. However perhaps you have some comments on this. Are the
materials and tooling similar ? Are the tolerances tighter on the later
model ? Perhaps it is a question of the volume being produced ?

Thanks again,

Steve

Carbon layup, complex curves, flaperons, sparless construction(?), and
finishing work on the SZD-55 and certainly the Diana will take longer than
Standard Jantar glass fiber construction. There's still cure time. If the
molds are heated, then there's the cost of doing that involved. Otherwise,
the parts spend more time in the molds. Earlier mold design was subject to
distortion with time, so only so many accurate pulls could be made before
the planform of the wings changed. These things have been overcome, but
there are incremental price increases as a result. The 1000 hours I
originally mentioned was the early Ventus (15m) line from a visit to
Schempp-Hirth in 1981. I'm sure the number was only approximate, or perhaps
the ideal, but it was quoted to me. Gel-coats may be a bit quicker than
polyurethane during the original build. At one time SH delivered gliders
withn minimal finishing since they knew competition pilots would tune the
wings anyway.

Pre-preg can reduce layup time, but it's nearly 2x the cost of wet layup
(even in filament winding processes) according to some sources I've glanced
at. As far as building a Junior in two days, maybe, but I'd still think in
terms of 680 man hours as the substantial difference is fixed gear vs
retract. Two days is a meaningless concept without knowing whether 30-40
people were involved for 8 or 12 hour shifts.

Filament winding is one method that's been shown to work, at least by Rutan.
However, there are limitations to the process that might make it impractical
for most glider production. Even then, the pod took something like 7 hours
to wind and the fuselage was 24 hours of continuous processing. I'm sure if
any of the factories could conceivably create a paradigm shift in glider
production that would create a price advantage, it's would already be in
use. All that's actually happened is to re-locate to cheaper labor markets,
which is not always the best solution.

Frank Whiteley

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...

"smjmitchell" wrote in message
u...
Janusz,

Thanks for the information on build time hours. This is very useful
information. I think it illustrates that labour is where we need to work
at
reducing the cost. One many year is approximately 2000 hrs .. actually
more
like 1700-1800 when holidays etc are considered. So 1400 hrs is a lot.
snip


Steve

Carbon layup, complex curves, flaperons, sparless construction(?), and
finishing work on the SZD-55 and certainly the Diana will take longer than

The SZD-55 has no carbon; it is all fiberglass. It has conventional wing
spars. It does not have flaperons or even flaps.

As far as building a Junior in two days, maybe, but I'd still think in
terms of 680 man hours as the substantial difference is fixed gear vs
retract. Two days is a meaningless concept without knowing whether 30-40
people were involved for 8 or 12 hour shifts.


I suspect that one Junior emerged from the factory every 2 days but surely
they must have spent longer on the line than 2 days. If for instance you
have 5 stations on the line and each airframe spent 2 days at each station
that is a total of 10 days on the line. Now if 3 guys worked in each station
with two shifts that is a total of 5 (stations) x 2 (days) x 3 (# guys) x 8
(shift hours) x 2 (# shifts) = 480 hours. This seems achievable for a simple
glider. I just cannot see how a sailplane of conventional construction could
be made in an elapsed time of only 2 days when cure time etc is allowed for.

If indead it is true that the Junior was made in 2 days with two shifts then
this deserves careful study. Does anyone have a PDF copy of the Junior
maintenance manual ????

Janusz ... do you have any more info on this ????


Frank,

Filament winding is one method that's been shown to work, at least by
Rutan.

There is a lot of conflicting information around on exactly how Rutan builds
his airframes. Some people say thay he uses a tape layer and others filament
winding. How confident are you in your information that he filament winds ?
If filament winding is used (and I believe this is probably the case) then I
am assuming he uses prepreg tow ???? Or is he using a wet layup with one of
the resins that has an extraordinarly long pot life (1-2 days) (there are
some excellent wet layup resins available now that are meant for this sort
of application).


However, there are limitations to the process that might make it
impractical
for most glider production.

Such as ????


Even then, the pod took something like 7 hours
to wind and the fuselage was 24 hours of continuous processing.

Are you refering to the Boomerang ????

It sounds like you have some knowledge of the Rutan processes ... can you
outline the process. What does he use for the plug to wind around ??? What
sort of winding machine - a simple two axis thing or something more complex
?? What sort of tow (12k ... 24k etc) ??? Does he wind a grid arrangement
of stiffeners on the inside of the fuselage ??? (it appears so from some
photo's you see) And the really big question .... how does he get the
outside smooth (perhaps this is one of the limitations you mention ??? -
perhaps this involved a lot of hand filling and sanding ?). What is the cure
.... oven ??? room temperature ??? What are the thickesses of the skins ?
What is the typical winding angle ?

One of the hopes of the Sparrowhawk was presumably to significantly reduce
the amount of labor involved. Of the 10 production run modern gliders
I'm aware of, the Sparrowhawk seems to most significantly contrast
the time-honored build process of other gliders, like the SZD 55-1 .

Which is why I'm surprised that the Sparrowhawk price
has increased (not decreased) so much since Serial # 1.
Eric Greenwell's article seemed to indicate
production on the order of weeks, certainly not the 1400 man-hours
described here. Do the materials really cost 40% more than they did
several years ago or is this a labor cost increase, or is it
payments on sunk engineering costs?

One wonders what would happen if the Sparrowhawk construction concept
were adopted in a country with very low labor costs. Perhaps a
(strange) side benefit may be that US certification of a Polish
Sparrowhawk might be easier than doing the same thing inside the US.

Uniting low cost (overseas) labor with excellent innovation.
Van's does this for its quickbuild kits, apparently with good commercial
success. I'd love to see what SZD would do, in terms of price,
producing a Sparrowhawk... Maybe an idea for the next World Class?

I'm astonished that the 55-1 takes 1400 man-hours to built.
I had absolutely no idea it was that consumptive...

In article ,
Janusz Kesik wrote:
I don't care such comments, and well, the most funny is that I wouldn't have
noticed that post, if someone hasn't commented that. It looks like this guy
has withdrawn his 'not so nice' posting from the server sooner than I did
retrieved fresh postings from my news server. Anyway, thanks for the support
for all of You my gliding friends.

Finally, as asked I feel obliged to deliver the final reply that the total
working hours involved in complete (from the first minute of work, to the
very end of finish) in case of production of the SZD-55, total at 1400
hours. So, well... it's a huge amount, and the lower cost of labour helps so
much indeed to keep it's price still 4500Euros lower than the *predicted*
price of the LS-4 which is going to re-enter production according to the
news I have red on the R.A.S.

With kindest regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl



U¿ytkownik "Ed Byars" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Janusz:
Thank you for your continued input. Your contributions to this thread are
appreciated. Please ignore the "Ugly American" comment (if it was an
American). I guess all countries have a few rude and inconsiderate types,
even in the soaring fraternity.
Ed Byars





--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd