Cheap sailplanes

I think IMAGE is the key. When I was sailing a dingy, sailing clubs were
having the same problem attracting and keeping young sailors**. On the
other hand, the old salts were ignoring the board sailors whose numbers were
exploding. The sight of a flying board going 25 kts has SEX, and the sex
attracted lots of young men and women.

It may be that gliding clubs and sailing clubs need to expand there
memberships to include board sailors and pargliders. This is because board
sailors and paragliders who reach their mid-20's or 30's (having survived
and/or their knees give out) may want the increased comfort, competition,
and performance of the soaring glider. This would a natural path of
transition from young paraglider to mature glider pilot as well as provide
the key to revitalizing declining club membership rosters.

John in Burke, VA
On the ground.
**The $75K+ boats never seemed to have any problem attracting lots of
pretty young people; however, most $25K+ sailplanes only hold one person,
and there's no overnight parties on board either.

"Chris Davison" wrote in message
...
Chaps...you're missing the point. Gliding is not in
decline because it is expensive, nor is it the British
weather. Paragliding in the UK costs £125 a day to
learn, and after about 10 days you have your 'club
pilot' rating and can fly solo..you then spend about
£3,000 on harness, wing, reserve and vario etc, and
maybe on average £1000 a year upgrading that kit as
it wears out or becomes unfashionable. The costs above
are easily in line with gliding. This year, despite
the worst weather on record, PG schools are turning
new pupils away. There is only one factor which stops
gliding being as successful as Paragliding....IMAGE.

The image of the average UK gliding club is being full
of old people in wooden gliders...the image of paragliding
is young, daredevils jumping off hills. Neither image
is correct...but it's perception that matters.

If you want gliding to prosper (and I would suggest
many pilots don't actually want the sport to go through
the transformation required) then we need a Red Bull
or Nike or Sky Sports to take gliding, tear up the
reality and change the image...and then we need clubs
to sell that image to the public.

Until people grasp this, all the talk of 'better World
Class gliders' and 'cheap winch launches' is meaningless.


Me? My kids (10, 14 and 18) have no desire to go gliding,
it's what their dad does...but wow, do they want to
do the stuff they see on TV.

Nuff said.

Chris




At 22:00 03 December 2004, Peter Seddon wrote:

'Kilo Charlie' wrote in message
news:yB2sd.19804$KO5.10476@fed1read02...
Interesting argument. Also interesting responses
some of which have
nothing
to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy
winter lurkers.

Sorry but the origional post said that the lack of
cheap gliders was
responsible for the decline in gliding. Not so, in
the UK the bad flying
weather over the past three years has put paid to more
of our members than
anything else.

I agree with you. Soaring has to be 'cool' again
in order to have it
survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat
wouldn't help but
nevertheless that alone will not save it.

Come fly with us, no waiting time to join just pay
us £130 for a years
membership, £2 /min aerotow and 20p /min hire, how
cheap do you want it to
be.

It is an instant gratification world out there. Why
should a kid spend
countless hours learning how to do something and paying
the dues by
watching
others do it in front of them when they can get out
the X-box or Gameboy
and
go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?

I can agree with that!!! But I had great fun throwing
my B4 about the sky
trying to loose the last 5k feet. You dont get that
with an XBox.

Peter.

On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 23:27:30 -0500, "JohnWN in Burke, VA"
wrote:

I think IMAGE is the key.

Soaring is in decline for a lot of reasons, some from without, some
from within. Declining real incomes, unsure futures, so called
"global economy" that looks to me like it might go ashcan, these don't
just effect soaring they effect most leisure actibities. Hobby supply
companies are going under daily, US machinery manufacturing is on the
skids, (Which were a lot of the higher paying jobs) more and more of
the auto industry is not in the US. Not much anyone can do about
those, but when you see very old names in the hobby industry
disappear, it's a pretty good sign that the expendable income isn't
there. Another indicator, when a new company does come up in the
hobby industry, it's almost always "high end", aimed at the limited
few that can afford the product, not at any mass market.

There is no one key, you're sitting at a 5 manual organ with AGO
pedalboard and trying to figure out which one will be the "key".
There ain't no magic bullet. Most people get their introduction to
flight today in the passenger compartment of a 747, a lot of them
don't even look out the window. Flying, for them, consists of getting
from one coast to the other before their competitor company does.

Kids, younger people, forget it. The kids might have a few bucks to
play with, but the early 20 to late 30 bracket is more interested in
keeping home and family in the same place. With no chance that you
won't be forced to find another job, don't look for them to jump into
something that's a constant drain on their income, it won't happen.
The three families nearest me, all of them, are having a pretty bad
time keeping going, one halfway down the block is being "relocated",
with the normal cut in income. No stability whatsoever, that's pretty
hard to overcome. But it's still only one reason, and not the only
one.

e wrote:

Kids, younger people, forget it. The kids might have a few bucks to
play with, but the early 20 to late 30 bracket is more interested in
keeping home and family in the same place. With no chance that you
won't be forced to find another job, don't look for them to jump into
something that's a constant drain on their income, it won't happen.
The three families nearest me, all of them, are having a pretty bad
time keeping going, one halfway down the block is being "relocated",
with the normal cut in income. No stability whatsoever, that's pretty
hard to overcome. But it's still only one reason, and not the only
one.

I agree 100%. Of course there are other reasons, but this one is
mechanically deterministic. On the other reasons, such as being more
attractive to youngs, trying to waste less time, etc. one can try to do
something.


--

Michel TALON

(Michel Talon) wrote in message ...


I agree 100%. Of course there are other reasons, but this one is
mechanically deterministic. On the other reasons, such as being more
attractive to youngs, trying to waste less time, etc. one can try to do
something.

Lots of other factors, changing attitudes, the way people look at
their lives has changed, dramatically, the lowered incomes for most
people. The financial matters probably cannot be overcome, there is
no way to reduce the costs to even reasonable. Attitudes, most young
people don't want to be part of a so called "elite" group, they would
rather stay acceptable to their peers. People don't live in one place
for very long now, seven years in the same town is average, and
decreasing, no real "roots" put down anywhere, sense of belonging to
any community is lost, or never existed.

Accessability to gliderports, here in the US, there are probably
gliderports within 100 miles of most places, but with people driving
long distances to work daily, getting them to spend even a little more
time in their car is going to be difficult. FOr 25 years I drove 27
miles to work, then 27 miles back home, you don't get used to it, you
get to hate it.

Consistancy in training, usually doesn't exist. "Instructor of the
day" is the rule, with rare exceptions. Finding the trainer and
instructors booked solid for the next six weeks, common. No such
thing as going to the field hoping to have even one flight squeezed
in, it just doesn't happen. Attitude that if you can't afford to
schedule your time in blocks for the next six weeks, you shouldn't be
doing it anyhow. Most people now have to look at what they have for
expendable income on a week to week basis, trying to schedule on that
basis is almost impossible.

Loss of common courtesies, I've driven 46 miles to the gliderport, to
find that the tug was down, and offered a poor substitute for what I
wanted. One phone call could have avoided me wasting 4 hours and the
$10 in gas that I could have used somewhere else. (Not restricted to
gliderports, but becoming very common everywhere.) I don't tolerate
that anyplace else, can't think of any reason anyone should.

And that's only dragging a pin over the surface, not even making a
scratch.

SSA rejected associating formally with the HG community in the '70's.
Paragliding is currently merging with HG. Not sure much can be done in the
near term. However, I could see the viability of a broader soaring
community at some point.

Frank Whiteley

"JohnWN in Burke, VA" wrote in message
news:Qcwsd.33$ln.2@lakeread06...
I think IMAGE is the key. When I was sailing a dingy, sailing clubs were
having the same problem attracting and keeping young sailors**. On the
other hand, the old salts were ignoring the board sailors whose numbers
were
exploding. The sight of a flying board going 25 kts has SEX, and the sex
attracted lots of young men and women.

It may be that gliding clubs and sailing clubs need to expand there
memberships to include board sailors and pargliders. This is because
board
sailors and paragliders who reach their mid-20's or 30's (having survived
and/or their knees give out) may want the increased comfort, competition,
and performance of the soaring glider. This would a natural path of
transition from young paraglider to mature glider pilot as well as provide
the key to revitalizing declining club membership rosters.

John in Burke, VA
On the ground.
**The $75K+ boats never seemed to have any problem attracting lots of
pretty young people; however, most $25K+ sailplanes only hold one person,
and there's no overnight parties on board either.

"Chris Davison" wrote in message
...
Chaps...you're missing the point. Gliding is not in
decline because it is expensive, nor is it the British
weather. Paragliding in the UK costs £125 a day to
learn, and after about 10 days you have your 'club
pilot' rating and can fly solo..you then spend about
£3,000 on harness, wing, reserve and vario etc, and
maybe on average £1000 a year upgrading that kit as
it wears out or becomes unfashionable. The costs above
are easily in line with gliding. This year, despite
the worst weather on record, PG schools are turning
new pupils away. There is only one factor which stops
gliding being as successful as Paragliding....IMAGE.

The image of the average UK gliding club is being full
of old people in wooden gliders...the image of paragliding
is young, daredevils jumping off hills. Neither image
is correct...but it's perception that matters.

If you want gliding to prosper (and I would suggest
many pilots don't actually want the sport to go through
the transformation required) then we need a Red Bull
or Nike or Sky Sports to take gliding, tear up the
reality and change the image...and then we need clubs
to sell that image to the public.

Until people grasp this, all the talk of 'better World
Class gliders' and 'cheap winch launches' is meaningless.


Me? My kids (10, 14 and 18) have no desire to go gliding,
it's what their dad does...but wow, do they want to
do the stuff they see on TV.

Nuff said.

Chris




At 22:00 03 December 2004, Peter Seddon wrote:

'Kilo Charlie' wrote in message
news:yB2sd.19804$KO5.10476@fed1read02...
Interesting argument. Also interesting responses
some of which have
nothing
to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy
winter lurkers.

Sorry but the origional post said that the lack of
cheap gliders was
responsible for the decline in gliding. Not so, in
the UK the bad flying
weather over the past three years has put paid to more
of our members than
anything else.

I agree with you. Soaring has to be 'cool' again
in order to have it
survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat
wouldn't help but
nevertheless that alone will not save it.

Come fly with us, no waiting time to join just pay
us £130 for a years
membership, £2 /min aerotow and 20p /min hire, how
cheap do you want it to
be.

It is an instant gratification world out there. Why
should a kid spend
countless hours learning how to do something and paying
the dues by
watching
others do it in front of them when they can get out
the X-box or Gameboy
and
go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?

I can agree with that!!! But I had great fun throwing
my B4 about the sky
trying to loose the last 5k feet. You dont get that
with an XBox.

Peter.

The parallel with sailing boats came in my mind just a few days ago, when
I heard in the radio a report about the big annual boat exhibition (Salon
Nautique) which was just starting here. lA manufacturer was interviewed, he
was saying that their production is stil growing, no problem with the market
but rather to be able to keep the production at a rate coping with the
demand. He was not speaking of cheap small boats, but of 40 ft and above
sailing boats.

I have some ideas on the subject as I practised sailing before I began
gliding and owned a 8m boat with which I cuised along the french coasts of
Britanny and also made travels to England and Ireland. My reflexion was
that most of the things that were mentionned in these discussions as
things which may discourage people to start or continue gliding are also
present in sailing and sailing is nevertheless growing.

Gliding depends heavily on meteorological conditions, sailing also. It may
be worse for sailing. If you go to your favorite gliding field and it rains,
you have lost your day but not your money. If you hired a sailing boat for
a week (in the size of 40ft, most people don't own a boat but rather hire
it) and the weather don't allow to make the cruise you have planned, you
have lost your time and your money.

Gliding is suffering for excess of regulation. For boats, at least in France
the situation may be worse. In fact among things that decided me to stop
sailing and sell my boat, there was two changes in the regulation I
considered as stupid, the first one reducing the maximum distance allowed
from a shelter from 100 to 60 nautical miles, making the direct travel from
Scilly Islands to Ireland impossible, the second one no more allowing the
same inflatable dinghy to be used both as a tender and as a rescue boat,
and I didn't had place for both.

Gliders are expensive, boats also. The thechnology for building them is very
similar and involves a lot of manpower. A former french boat manufacturer
has even built under license a small number of Cirrus and Janus.

I don't know why despite a similar amount of related hassle, sailing is
still growing while gliding is declining. Certainly the medias, TV, radio
and nesspapers play some role. I heard about the Salon Nautique in the
radio, I heard about the Vendee Globe, the one man race around the world,
I never heard about gliders. However, when I started sailing about 30 years
ago, it was almost ignored as gliding is now. Another thing maybe that
sailing may seem most "obvious" and/or "natural" to most people, as sailing
boats exist since thousands of years, while most people are even not aware
that gliders exist, as the first ones were built about only one century ago.

Robert Ehrlich wrote:

Gliding is suffering for excess of regulation.

Of course you're right. But don't let THE MAN get you down.
When glider pilots ask me why I'm so supprotive of
Sport Pilot, I borrow a quote from the movie "The School of Rock"
"I'm doing like you taught us, I'm stickin' it to THE MAN."


In fact among things that decided me to stop
sailing and sell my boat, there was two changes in the regulation I
considered as stupid, the first one reducing the maximum distance allowed
from a shelter from 100 to 60 nautical miles, making the direct travel from
Scilly Islands to Ireland impossible, the second one no more allowing the
same inflatable dinghy to be used both as a tender and as a rescue boat,
and I didn't had place for both.

Even seemingly small regulations have huge dampening effects. Alan Greenspan
is famous for (among other things) pointing this out to the U.S. Congress.
The use of more incentives vs. regulation to shape commerce is an example of
his (partial) influence.

Overregulation can really impact an industry. The worst is when it
happens incrementally, in tiny steps that don't quite get a radar
return. Over time, airplane instructors needed a commercial
license, and then an instrument rating. C'mon, all that to instruct
in a Piper Cub? Glider pilots needed a commercial license, then
an instructor license, to instruct. C'mon, if someone passed a private,
why do they need to pay for a commercial checkride too
(with no PTS difference except +/-100 feet for landing vs. +/-200 feet,
and +/- 5 instead of +10/-5 for airspeed and bank angle) before
taking a CFIG test?

These incremental overregulations over time gradually hurt the
aviation industry. It looks like the FAA is slowly moving towards
requiring transponders in all aircraft above 10,000 feet. Yep,
that'll incrementally cut some flying. Then I suspect they'll try to
require transponders in all aircraft at all altitudes, eventually.
And each one will be required to emit a unique ID, for "safety" reasons.
Sounds like THE MAN to me...

That's why I joined AOPA (for a little fee).
As the song goes, "Freedom isn't free, it's a buck-o-five."

I don't know why despite a similar amount of related hassle, sailing is
still growing while gliding is declining. Certainly the medias, TV, radio
and nesspapers play some role.

Certainly. Every airplane crash of a Cessna 152 or 172 or Piper is reported
on the evening news. The same number of deaths in a car seldom makes the
news.

Two drunks taxi an airliner from the gate, and it's national news.
Two drunks light a building on fire and maybe it makes the local paper.

The knife cuts both ways.

I heard about the Salon Nautique in the
radio, I heard about the Vendee Globe, the one man race around the world,
I never heard about gliders. However, when I started sailing about 30 years
ago, it was almost ignored as gliding is now. Another thing maybe that
sailing may seem most "obvious" and/or "natural" to most people, as sailing
boats exist since thousands of years, while most people are even not aware
that gliders exist, as the first ones were built about only one century ago.


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:41b3545f$1@darkstar...
Robert Ehrlich wrote:

Gliding is suffering for excess of regulation.

Of course you're right. But don't let THE MAN get you down.
When glider pilots ask me why I'm so supprotive of
Sport Pilot, I borrow a quote from the movie "The School of Rock"
"I'm doing like you taught us, I'm stickin' it to THE MAN."


In fact among things that decided me to stop
sailing and sell my boat, there was two changes in the regulation I
considered as stupid, the first one reducing the maximum distance allowed
from a shelter from 100 to 60 nautical miles, making the direct travel
from
Scilly Islands to Ireland impossible, the second one no more allowing the
same inflatable dinghy to be used both as a tender and as a rescue boat,
and I didn't had place for both.

Even seemingly small regulations have huge dampening effects. Alan
Greenspan
is famous for (among other things) pointing this out to the U.S. Congress.
The use of more incentives vs. regulation to shape commerce is an example
of
his (partial) influence.

Overregulation can really impact an industry. The worst is when it
happens incrementally, in tiny steps that don't quite get a radar
return. Over time, airplane instructors needed a commercial
license, and then an instrument rating. C'mon, all that to instruct
in a Piper Cub? Glider pilots needed a commercial license, then
an instructor license, to instruct. C'mon, if someone passed a private,
why do they need to pay for a commercial checkride too
(with no PTS difference except +/-100 feet for landing vs. +/-200 feet,
and +/- 5 instead of +10/-5 for airspeed and bank angle) before
taking a CFIG test?

These incremental overregulations over time gradually hurt the
aviation industry. It looks like the FAA is slowly moving towards
requiring transponders in all aircraft above 10,000 feet. Yep,
that'll incrementally cut some flying. Then I suspect they'll try to
require transponders in all aircraft at all altitudes, eventually.
And each one will be required to emit a unique ID, for "safety" reasons.
Sounds like THE MAN to me...

That's why I joined AOPA (for a little fee).
As the song goes, "Freedom isn't free, it's a buck-o-five."

I don't know why despite a similar amount of related hassle, sailing is
still growing while gliding is declining. Certainly the medias, TV, radio
and nesspapers play some role.

Certainly. Every airplane crash of a Cessna 152 or 172 or Piper is
reported
on the evening news. The same number of deaths in a car seldom makes the
news.

Two drunks taxi an airliner from the gate, and it's national news.
Two drunks light a building on fire and maybe it makes the local paper.

The knife cuts both ways.

I heard about the Salon Nautique in the
radio, I heard about the Vendee Globe, the one man race around the world,
I never heard about gliders. However, when I started sailing about 30
years
ago, it was almost ignored as gliding is now. Another thing maybe that
sailing may seem most "obvious" and/or "natural" to most people, as
sailing
boats exist since thousands of years, while most people are even not
aware
that gliders exist, as the first ones were built about only one century
ago.


Had a interesting chat with someone who posts here infrequently the other
evening. He had some concern about the plain English language of the sport
pilot/LSA tending towards the draconian. IOW, unless specifically
permitted, it's prohibited, unlike the current FARs, where unless
specifically prohibited, it's permitted. The next revisions may be onerous.

Frank Whiteley