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Bill Daniels wrote:


There's something about being 300 Km out over uninviting terrain that puts a
completely different perspective on the art of flying gliders. An
instructor with that experience teaches even the basics better than one
without it. He knows WHY you have to fly perfectly coordinated with perfect
airspeed control.

I'll have to disagree on this one: even though I am an instructor
(though not currently instructing) and a cross-country pilot, I don't
have any idea why perfect coordination or perfect airspeed control is
required. There are moments on some cross-country flights when good
coordination and speed control (but not anything like "perfect") are
essentials, but it's not the cross-country part that requires it: it's
the landing, and a good instructor can teach that without XC experience.

As I know it, cross-country flying is rarely about handling the glider,
but instead is mostly about judging the weather, observing likely lift
areas, and keeping a safe landing place in reach.

Sure, a good instructor with cross-country experience is more desirable
than a good instructor without it, but the most important part is very
much the "good instructor". Cross-country experience will not turn a
mediocre instructor into a good instructor. The experience might make it
easier for him to entice students into going cross-country, but I don't
think his students will as good at handling the glider than those of a
good instructor.


--
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:


There's something about being 300 Km out over uninviting terrain that
puts a
completely different perspective on the art of flying gliders. An
instructor with that experience teaches even the basics better than one
without it. He knows WHY you have to fly perfectly coordinated with
perfect
airspeed control.

I'll have to disagree on this one: even though I am an instructor
(though not currently instructing) and a cross-country pilot, I don't
have any idea why perfect coordination or perfect airspeed control is
required.

It's because with that skill you can climb in a weak thermal a sloppy pilot
can't use. Sooner or later, that will make the difference in getting home.

In addition, every TE probe I have flown with is sensitive to even slight
yaw angles. If the glider is always yawing, the TE vario data isn't
reliable and centering a thermal will be harder.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...

Bill Daniels wrote:


There's something about being 300 Km out over uninviting terrain that

puts a

completely different perspective on the art of flying gliders. An
instructor with that experience teaches even the basics better than one
without it. He knows WHY you have to fly perfectly coordinated with perfect
airspeed control.

I'll have to disagree on this one: even though I am an instructor
(though not currently instructing) and a cross-country pilot, I don't
have any idea why perfect coordination or perfect airspeed control is
required.


It's because with that skill you can climb in a weak thermal a sloppy pilot
can't use. Sooner or later, that will make the difference in getting home.

THis kind of thing seems so far from the basics, that I never taught it,
nor would I expect a newly licensed glider pilot to be able to work a
weak thermal better than "adequate" (not perfectly, that's for sure). I
did not tolerate "sloppy" flying, however, nor should any instructor.

In addition, every TE probe I have flown with is sensitive to even slight
yaw angles. If the glider is always yawing, the TE vario data isn't
reliable and centering a thermal will be harder.

You need to find a better probe! The ones I've used don't require
perfection, just "good" flying, thank goodness, or I'd be on the ground
a lot more often. In a weak thermal, I think "steady" flying, not
perfect airspeed or coordination, is required to feel the thermal on the
glider and give the vario it's best chance to detect it. Again, these
opportuities to teach flying in weak lift abound in the training
situation, since this is when training is often done.

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...


THis kind of thing seems so far from the basics, that I never taught it,
nor would I expect a newly licensed glider pilot to be able to work a
weak thermal better than "adequate" (not perfectly, that's for sure). I
did not tolerate "sloppy" flying, however, nor should any instructor.

In addition, every TE probe I have flown with is sensitive to even
slight
yaw angles. If the glider is always yawing, the TE vario data isn't
reliable and centering a thermal will be harder.

You need to find a better probe! The ones I've used don't require
perfection, just "good" flying, thank goodness, or I'd be on the ground
a lot more often. In a weak thermal, I think "steady" flying, not
perfect airspeed or coordination, is required to feel the thermal on the
glider and give the vario it's best chance to detect it. Again, these
opportuities to teach flying in weak lift abound in the training
situation, since this is when training is often done.


Show me a competitor in any field that says, "I don't need to sweat the
basics" and I'll show you a loser.

I teach that good is good, better is better and the best are those that stay
up and win contests. The best pilots always strive to get as close to
perfection and as their talent will permit. They never stop learning. Just
being "good enough" is not an option.

After all, even extraordinary flying skill weighs nothing, adds no drag and
doesn't consume battery power. In the long run, it's the cheapest thing you
can acquire to improve soaring performance.

I don't need a new TE probe. Mine doesn't fly sideways.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:


Show me a competitor in any field that says, "I don't need to sweat the
basics" and I'll show you a loser.

Paul McCready was the most famous of the pilots I know that espoused
that philosophy ("I don't need to sweat the basics"). I don't recall the
details now, but in essence, he said soaring competition wasn't about
keeping the yaw string straight, but being in better lift longer than
your competitors.


I teach that good is good, better is better and the best are those that stay
up and win contests. The best pilots always strive to get as close to
perfection and as their talent will permit. They never stop learning. Just
being "good enough" is not an option.

After all, even extraordinary flying skill weighs nothing, adds no drag and
doesn't consume battery power. In the long run, it's the cheapest thing you
can acquire to improve soaring performance.

This is all true, but it's a far cry from the original contention that
cross-country experience makes an instructor better at teaching the
basics. I still maintain a good instructor without cross-country
experience can teach the basics better than a mediocre instructor that
has cross-country experience. I encourage all instructors to try
cross-country because he/she might enjoy it and might be able to instill
that joy in a student, but a good instructor should not feel less valued
because he doesn't have it.


--
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric Greenwell wrote:
has cross-country experience. I encourage all instructors to try
cross-country because he/she might enjoy it and might be able to instill
that joy in a student, but a good instructor should not feel less valued

Finally you get it! this is the alpha and omega of soaring. If the
student doesn't get the joy of soaring, he will not stay in the game for
long, if he does he may stay for very long. I have known many
instructors who are only able to disgust their student of soaring,
precisely because they never have experimented these sensations and only
invest themselves in trivial technical details. These people take for
granted that the student is very eager to fly and they can do everything
in their power do curb him to their discipline. Don't search long why
youngsters fly away from soaring.

because he doesn't have it.

--

Michel TALON

Michel Talon wrote:

I have known many
instructors who are only able to disgust their student of soaring,
precisely because they never have experimented these sensations and only
invest themselves in trivial technical details.

Wow! I've met instructors who want to get someone to license
quickly, but I've never met one who "disgusted a student to soaring."

Flying safely, longer, higher, further and faster is the whole essense
of the joy of the "sport." The first standard (the minimum level of
safety) is the license standard in the USA, but I haven't seen
instructors poo-poo the other steps (the soaring, vs. gliding steps).

I'm surprised, and sorry, to hear that Michel's experience has
been different...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

I have to agree with Bill and Michel. I prefer instructors (and even
club members) with xc experience (or intention to go xc) because that's
where you have to show your best. I believe xc is an ultimate soaring
exam. You can climb from 150-200m locally but can you repeat it 100km
away under stress of outlanding? Can you afford to make any mistake
(yawing for a while, choose wrong path or speed) when try to make a l/d
max final glide?
You always learn something new and feel as a student again. Hanging
around the airport could be boring and doesn't attract new members. We
shouldn't be lazy to settle down and just telling the 10-20 year old
stories... We should go out again and again and collect new experiences
(and share it at the airport's pub of course. XC experience valuable
for the soaring community only if you share it.
I don't say that instructors without xc experience can't do basic
training. I just think basic training is not too much, training is
really done if the student made the first 300k... How do you support
your student if you haven't done what she/he is about to try?

/Jancsika (a beginner xc pilot, maybe instructor from next spring)

Janos Bauer wrote:

I have to agree with Bill and Michel. I prefer instructors (and even
club members) with xc experience (or intention to go xc) because that's
where you have to show your best.

"All other things being equal", so do I; however, I know good
cross-country pilots that are not good instructors (most of these don't
instruct, fortunately), and frankly, some them have poor flying skills.
But, boy, can they find the lift and use it!

I believe xc is an ultimate soaring
exam.

The things that make you good at cross-country are not the things you
need to fly safely. Cross-country flying is mainly about figuring out
where the lift is, then using the best of it. It is not about keeping
the yaw string straight, holding your speed to +/- 1 knot while
thermalling, or making coordinated turns. Those things help, but if
that's all it took, I'd be a winning contest pilot instead of an also-ran.

You can climb from 150-200m locally but can you repeat it 100km
away under stress of outlanding?

Teaching a student to handle stress and distraction is very important,
but it's a difficult job that can only be started with basic training.
Even more important is to teach the student to avoid situations that
cause more stress than he can handle. This is also difficult. My point
is a student can be taught enough of this stress management (by a non-XC
instructor) to qualify for a license and fly safely. It won't be all he
needs to know about it for every flight he might make in the future, but
we all do some "on-the-job" learning, don't we?

Can you afford to make any mistake
(yawing for a while, choose wrong path or speed) when try to make a l/d
max final glide?

Yes, you can. Goodness knows, I've done it many times myself, and I'm
here to tell you about it. It means you aren't as likely to get home and
win the contest, but it's not a safety issue, because you keep a safe
landing area within easy reach. You do, don't you? You don't try that
max l/d final glide across a forest, I hope!

You always learn something new and feel as a student again. Hanging
around the airport could be boring and doesn't attract new members. We
shouldn't be lazy to settle down and just telling the 10-20 year old
stories... We should go out again and again and collect new experiences
(and share it at the airport's pub of course. XC experience valuable
for the soaring community only if you share it.
I don't say that instructors without xc experience can't do basic
training. I just think basic training is not too much, training is
really done if the student made the first 300k... How do you support
your student if you haven't done what she/he is about to try?

The instructor doesn't have to do it all. If the club (or a commercial
operation) has cross-country pilots flying from the same airport, these
pilots can guide the student or newly licensed pilot into cross-country
flying. They can do this by example, by flying with the new pilot in one
of the two seaters, by pair flying, by holding ground schools, and so on.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Janos Bauer wrote:


I have to agree with Bill and Michel. I prefer instructors (and even
club members) with xc experience (or intention to go xc) because
that's where you have to show your best.


"All other things being equal", so do I; however, I know good
cross-country pilots that are not good instructors (most of these don't
instruct, fortunately), and frankly, some them have poor flying skills.
But, boy, can they find the lift and use it!

My point was only about the advantage of xc experience. If we have two
good instructors and if one of them has xc experience that is more
valuable for me. That's all. I don't state that simple xc experience
will make you good instructor. Even an asshole could fly xc. The key is
to teach what you experience on xc. To transfer all those complicated
lessons in an understandable way requires to be really clever.

I believe xc is an ultimate soaring

exam.

The things that make you good at cross-country are not the things you
need to fly safely. Cross-country flying is mainly about figuring out
where the lift is, then using the best of it. It is not about keeping
the yaw string straight, holding your speed to +/- 1 knot while
thermalling, or making coordinated turns. Those things help, but if
that's all it took, I'd be a winning contest pilot instead of an also-ran.

Hmm, the best instructors who taught me always warned us to pay
attention on details (yaw string, speed, bank angle etc-etc). They were
also successful xc pilots, some of them finished on top several
contests. We fly on flatland only and that makes much difference.
I know that contest is a different issue. XC in club environment, when
only 2-4 pilot is on the task, is more valuable for me.

You can climb from 150-200m locally but can you repeat it 100km

away under stress of outlanding?


Teaching a student to handle stress and distraction is very important,
but it's a difficult job that can only be started with basic training.
Even more important is to teach the student to avoid situations that
cause more stress than he can handle. This is also difficult. My point
is a student can be taught enough of this stress management (by a non-XC
instructor) to qualify for a license and fly safely. It won't be all he
needs to know about it for every flight he might make in the future, but
we all do some "on-the-job" learning, don't we?

Around the airport there just much less impact on the pilot. You can
teach about stress better if you experience it. It's just so useful to
sit down with the "old" pilots and listen what they experienced an
his/her xc tasks. Of course several unexpected things could happen
around the airport but on the task there are much more chance to face
something new. And those cases you have to use your brain...

Can you afford to make any mistake (yawing for a while, choose wrong
path or speed) when try to make a l/d max final glide?


Yes, you can. Goodness knows, I've done it many times myself, and I'm
here to tell you about it. It means you aren't as likely to get home and
win the contest, but it's not a safety issue, because you keep a safe
landing area within easy reach. You do, don't you? You don't try that
max l/d final glide across a forest, I hope!

No, it's not about safety in this case. For example on my first 300km
I started my final glide in a Pirat at 2200m ~60km from the field. I
passed several outlanding places so it was safe but a really long glide
with max l/d speed, yaw string centered. The other pilot outlanded that
day...

You always learn something new and feel as a student again. Hanging
around the airport could be boring and doesn't attract new members. We
shouldn't be lazy to settle down and just telling the 10-20 year old
stories... We should go out again and again and collect new
experiences (and share it at the airport's pub of course. XC
experience valuable for the soaring community only if you share it.
I don't say that instructors without xc experience can't do basic
training. I just think basic training is not too much, training is
really done if the student made the first 300k... How do you support
your student if you haven't done what she/he is about to try?


The instructor doesn't have to do it all. If the club (or a commercial
operation) has cross-country pilots flying from the same airport, these
pilots can guide the student or newly licensed pilot into cross-country
flying. They can do this by example, by flying with the new pilot in one
of the two seaters, by pair flying, by holding ground schools, and so on.

That's why I wrote instructor and club members in my first post. I'm
open to get these lessons from anyone.
In a summary: it's just better if you experience as much as possible
in soaring. Instructors without xc are not bad at all, they could be
just better if they try it again. Unfortunately most of the clubs there
is a tendency to fly less and less xc.

/Janos