Proposed 2005 Rules On SRA Site

Chris, Chris, Chris......I love it when you stoop to arguing with statistics
by not only dissing the ones presented but not offering any of your own to
support another viewpoint! The old "I just know those aren't correct" idea.
Hey I'm here to learn so show me the money and I'll be glad to see it
another way. Honestly I thought that those nasty old AOPA stats with all of
their bias supported the point that Tim (and you) were making.

And Tim.....the reason that I bought and installed a transponder (which with
an encoder was less than $2000 BTW) was that when I was flying back from the
Grand Canyon towards Phoenix on those very long flat glides, I could not
even see the gliders in front of me but could see the occasional 737 heading
in to PHX. Now I'm not thinkin' that you fly in a place more remote than
northern Arizona but I suppose I may have missed that spot while I was
flying on the east coast. With that 37 and I heading the same direction I
figured that I would get a loud noise followed by crunching as the first
sign I may be too close.

As you point out and as I said already, transponders are a lot of money but
you chose to overlook that part about the newer ELT's (and soon to be only
effective models) currently being the same price. Maybe they'll come down
in price, maybe so will transponders, maybe neither will.

I'll make the point again.....ANY $2000 required piece of equipment for
contest entry will be prohibitive to some pilots, esp newer ones. Point
number 2 is that if we are forced to choose which is a more effective
instrument in preventing human loss of life and therefore psychological
trauma to the greater number of people I say that the stats would support
the transponder.

I used OC logic with that last statement since I have nothing to support
it!!! But darn it I know I'm right!

KC

Rats, it doesn't look like my knee jerk response posted. Ah well,
nothing particularly interesting. Just some poking at Casey...
sometimes a Jeanne d'Arc is the most powerful appeal. Besides, if you
can lead with pathos, then counter the criticism with logic, you have a
much more powerful argument. But alas, that wasn't the intent (this
time).

I don't dispute the AOPA's numbers, just the sophistry of their
presentation. I've cited sources of such statistics in past in related
threads. Probably the most relevant is
http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/Beacons...provedList.htm which gives
the background and mission of SARSAT as well as a list of current 406
manufacturers. (I'm reviewing and pricing avaiation units now.) The
important message to take away from this site is that 121.5/243 MHz
ELTs were not designed to operate with satellites. Improvements have
been made, but the 406 MHz ELT is specifically designed to be
instantaneously detected by satellite and provide sufficient accuracy
(first pass doppler shift) to allow a manageable search effort.

Another general information page is
http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emerbcns.html.

You can find the statistics quoted (in part) by AOPA at
http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/406vs121.pdf.

I've lost the link for failure rates of the first and second generation
inertial switches used in aviation ELTs. Maybe someone else recalls....

As for Casey's belief that transponders would provide a better
investment with respect to safety, it's hard to argue the value. Once
again, though, this seems to be a rule responding to the concerns of
contest organizers. All things measured, the transponder may be more
valuable to the pilot, but not to contest staff.

In fact, my guess would be that the best invesment we could make as
pilots would be annual recurrency training. It seems that even the best
of us are apt to pick up bad habits. If only there were experienced
coaches who could inspire enough respect to overcome our egos and do us
some real good. Barring that, impersonal, nonjudgemental gadgets seem
the next best bet.

wrote:
As for Casey's belief that transponders would provide a better
investment with respect to safety, it's hard to argue the value. Once
again, though, this seems to be a rule responding to the concerns of
contest organizers. All things measured, the transponder may be more
valuable to the pilot, but not to contest staff.

Frankly, it doesn't appear to me to be due to the concerns of "contest
organizers" in general, it is the concerns of some members of the Rules
Committee, and perhaps a few contest organizers on the east coast, that
are driving this. No contest official I've had contact with out here
has ever expressed reservations about the lack of ELTs, and as president
of a regional/national contest sponsoring organization (Pacific Soaring
Council), I can't say that I've ever much thought about it, until now.
Strangely enough, we do actively encourage local pilots to get
transponders, due to traffic concerns in the Reno area.

Marc

Now that's more like it Chris! Those are some nice reference
sites....thanks!

If you find a good source for ELT's at a reasonable price please post it
here.

BTW I assume that these are useful anywhere in the world. Are any other
countries requiring them for contests?

Casey
KC

Nope!

In article hViHd.5695$0B.2411@fed1read02, Kilo Charlie wrote:

BTW I assume that these are useful anywhere in the world. Are any other
countries requiring them for contests?


ELTs are required in gliders in NZ. Exemptions are only for local flying,
my memory says within 10km of the field.

We are allowed to carry portable units though.

--
Philip Plane _____
|
---------------( )---------------
Glider pilots have no visible means of support

I have a portable personal ELT. I have taken it with me on
thousands of flights, some in gliders. When I flew a glider, I
attached it across my chest with the parachute. I've activated it four
times, when coming in for landing at unobserved (outlanding) strips.
I shut it off in each case after landing, except once when I was able to
avoid landout and instead climbed 10,000 feet. I then shut it off, and
called FSS and told them I was the false alarm.

I don't know why pilots assume they have to crash to activate the
ELT. I agree with Carl Herold that every outlanding is an
emergency landing, and I treat it as such.

I have never flown a glider with an installed ELT. I have found
my particular use of a personal ELT suits me and my needs better.
And my ELT is on ME, not the glider. I don't care if anyone finds
the glider...

In article IZ0Hd.4920$0B.1542@fed1read02,
Kilo Charlie NOSPAMkilocharlie.cox.net wrote:
Chris, Chris, Chris......I love it when you stoop to arguing with statistics
by not only dissing the ones presented but not offering any of your own to
support another viewpoint! The old "I just know those aren't correct" idea.
Hey I'm here to learn so show me the money and I'll be glad to see it
another way. Honestly I thought that those nasty old AOPA stats with all of
their bias supported the point that Tim (and you) were making.

And Tim.....the reason that I bought and installed a transponder (which with
an encoder was less than $2000 BTW) was that when I was flying back from the
Grand Canyon towards Phoenix on those very long flat glides, I could not
even see the gliders in front of me but could see the occasional 737 heading
in to PHX. Now I'm not thinkin' that you fly in a place more remote than
northern Arizona but I suppose I may have missed that spot while I was
flying on the east coast. With that 37 and I heading the same direction I
figured that I would get a loud noise followed by crunching as the first
sign I may be too close.

As you point out and as I said already, transponders are a lot of money but
you chose to overlook that part about the newer ELT's (and soon to be only
effective models) currently being the same price. Maybe they'll come down
in price, maybe so will transponders, maybe neither will.

I'll make the point again.....ANY $2000 required piece of equipment for
contest entry will be prohibitive to some pilots, esp newer ones. Point
number 2 is that if we are forced to choose which is a more effective
instrument in preventing human loss of life and therefore psychological
trauma to the greater number of people I say that the stats would support
the transponder.

I used OC logic with that last statement since I have nothing to support
it!!! But darn it I know I'm right!

KC





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Mark J. Boyd