Sukhoi PAK-FA ?

"D" wrote in message
ink.net...
----------
In article , "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Well, what is really strange that Russia has enough money (due to high
oil prices) to spend on military acquisitions..

Well, Mr. Snarky, the fact is that they *don't* have the money to
spend--or
have you missed their gyrations with executing more and more "barter"
exchanges of late?

Do you actually read newspapers?

As the original poster noted, higher oil prices have helped the Russians
out
a lot, bringing in a lot more revenue than only a couple of years ago.

A big problem with the Russian economy is that people don't pay their
taxes,
so the government has been cash poor. But they do have a major asset in
oil
resources, and when oil prices go up, more money pours into the treasury.

So the original poster was right--their revenues have gone up because of
increased oil prices.


However the OP also claimed those revenues were available
for weapons purchases. This does not follow, in fact the total
funding for the Russian armed forces in 2004 was $14 billion.
Of that only $4 billion was earmarked for purchases and that
is for all 3 services.

Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.

Keith




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"Keith W" wrote in message
...

"D" wrote in message
ink.net...
----------
In article , "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Well, what is really strange that Russia has enough money (due to
high
oil prices) to spend on military acquisitions..

Well, Mr. Snarky, the fact is that they *don't* have the money to
spend--or
have you missed their gyrations with executing more and more "barter"
exchanges of late?

Do you actually read newspapers?

As the original poster noted, higher oil prices have helped the Russians
out
a lot, bringing in a lot more revenue than only a couple of years ago.

A big problem with the Russian economy is that people don't pay their
taxes,
so the government has been cash poor. But they do have a major asset in
oil
resources, and when oil prices go up, more money pours into the treasury.

So the original poster was right--their revenues have gone up because of
increased oil prices.


However the OP also claimed those revenues were available
for weapons purchases. This does not follow, in fact the total
funding for the Russian armed forces in 2004 was $14 billion.
Of that only $4 billion was earmarked for purchases and that
is for all 3 services.

Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.

To put it into perspective against the exported energy values, the estimated
total export volume for Russia in 2004 was about $182 billion (according to
a US DOE estimate), of which some 55% was credited to the energy sector. So
if the Russians put every penny they got from oil/gas/coal/electric exports
into their defense budget (a ludicrous assumption, as a good chunk of that
money is now going to a Russian hedge fund designed to allow it to survive
downward fluctuations in the oil price--apparently they have accrued some
$16 or $17 billion in that account since its inception in JAN 2004), it
would still be less than 25% of the US amount.

www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/russia.html

www.citibank.ru/russia/pdf/eng/bal_rus2004.pdf

Brooks


Keith

----------
In article , "Keith W"
wrote:

However the OP also claimed those revenues were available
for weapons purchases. This does not follow, in fact the total
^^^^^^^^^

Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.
^^^^^^^^^^^

He was not discussing "development" but "acquisitions" (i.e. "purchases").
Their equipment is relatively cheap to buy compared to the US.

What we're discussing is theoretical, and in that regard the original poster
was right--the increase in Russian oil revenues _should_ make more money
available for buying weapons. But they are not really doing that.




D

"D" wrote in message
nk.net...
----------
In article , "Keith W"
wrote:

However the OP also claimed those revenues were available
for weapons purchases. This does not follow, in fact the total
^^^^^^^^^

Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.
^^^^^^^^^^^

He was not discussing "development" but "acquisitions" (i.e. "purchases").
Their equipment is relatively cheap to buy compared to the US.


The subject line is the Sukhoi PAK-FA - a system IN DEVELOPMENT

Duh !

What we're discussing is theoretical, and in that regard the original
poster
was right--the increase in Russian oil revenues _should_ make more money
available for buying weapons. But they are not really doing that.


Only if the government had no other calls on the money, it does.
Quite correctly (IMHO) they have decided that paying the wages
of the people who work for them and getting the healthcare
system at least to a level where Russia no longer has
one of the worst mortality rates outside the third world are
rather more important than developing 5th gen fighters.

Keith

Keith W wrote:
"D" wrote in message
nk.net...

----------
In article , "Keith W"
wrote:


However the OP also claimed those revenues were available
for weapons purchases. This does not follow, in fact the total

^^^^^^^^^


Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.

^^^^^^^^^^^

He was not discussing "development" but "acquisitions" (i.e. "purchases").
Their equipment is relatively cheap to buy compared to the US.



The subject line is the Sukhoi PAK-FA - a system IN DEVELOPMENT

Duh !


What we're discussing is theoretical, and in that regard the original
poster
was right--the increase in Russian oil revenues _should_ make more money
available for buying weapons. But they are not really doing that.



Only if the government had no other calls on the money, it does.
Quite correctly (IMHO) they have decided that paying the wages
of the people who work for them and getting the healthcare
system at least to a level where Russia no longer has
one of the worst mortality rates outside the third world are
rather more important than developing 5th gen fighters.

Keith


But i wonder what a fully funded Sukhoi or Mig could produce?
They seem to have done a lot on table scraps.........

Bob

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1.
But they are not really doing that.
And question is why?!

2.
Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.

You should see this page re Russian Economy
http://www.warfare.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57

3.
Do you have any information about Tu-202 stealth bomber?

"forties" wrote in message
oups.com...
1.
But they are not really doing that.

And question is why?!

Because they have much more pressing needs for every ruble in hard cash they
can get.


2.
Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.

You should see this page re Russian Economy
http://www.warfare.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57

3.
Do you have any information about Tu-202 stealth bomber?

Another stillborn paper concept, from what I gather. The only projects the
Russians have made any progress on are the ones that offer significant
export potential (like the spirals for the MiG-29, Su-27, and Su-30) or the
ones that they can get foreign development capital to support. They are
scratching hard to try and meet their obligations for the An-70 project, and
are behind the power curve on that one already. The single project aimed at
production to meet significant domestic needs that they have pursued of late
appears to be their new trainer/lead-in-fighter-trainer project. As Keith
quite accurately pointed out, their defense budget just will not support any
major new combat aircraft development right now, with the exception of those
programs they may jointly pursue with India and/or China.

Brooks

Another stillborn paper concept, from what I gather.
Well, although sounds like Tu-202 is myth I knew ex-RAF persons who
said they have seen this a/c during test flights in mid of '90s..

They are scratching hard to try and meet their obligations for the
An-70 project, and
are behind the power curve on that one already.

Antonov Design Bureau (AN-70) is Ukrainian company. Russians just
finance it.. and sounds like they were not/are not actually interested
in this a/c..

As Keith quite accurately pointed out, their defense budget just will
not support any
major new combat aircraft development right now, with the exception of
those
programs they may jointly pursue with India and/or China.

Knowing Russian internal security policy I am sure they will not let
to transfer such advanced technologies to other country for any sort of
cooperation especially for the development of future main Russian
fighter. Looks like they just use India/China to get money and play
with them... Rough proove of my words is that for instance any hardware
(a/c, missiles etc) sold to outside countries is light version (reduced
accuracy, etc) of equipment used in Russia's Armed Forces..

"forties" wrote in message
oups.com...
Another stillborn paper concept, from what I gather.
Well, although sounds like Tu-202 is myth I knew ex-RAF persons who
said they have seen this a/c during test flights in mid of '90s..

Lots of UFOs are seen also...doesn't mean they are from outer space, though.
:-)


They are scratching hard to try and meet their obligations for the
An-70 project, and
are behind the power curve on that one already.

Antonov Design Bureau (AN-70) is Ukrainian company. Russians just
finance it.. and sounds like they were not/are not actually interested
in this a/c..

Actually, that is a joint project (the D-27 engines originate with MMPP
Salut in Moscow, don't they?). The Russians bought into it up front, then
backed out, or appeared to, and now they say they are back onboard...but are
reportedly a bit slow in actually living up to their end of the financial
bargain. Why? Because they are cash-strapped, plain and simple.


As Keith quite accurately pointed out, their defense budget just will
not support any
major new combat aircraft development right now, with the exception of
those
programs they may jointly pursue with India and/or China.

Knowing Russian internal security policy I am sure they will not let
to transfer such advanced technologies to other country for any sort of
cooperation especially for the development of future main Russian
fighter. Looks like they just use India/China to get money and play
with them... Rough proove of my words is that for instance any hardware
(a/c, missiles etc) sold to outside countries is light version (reduced
accuracy, etc) of equipment used in Russia's Armed Forces..

Not anymore. The latest Su-30 variants they have sold to India and China are
better equipped than anything they are flying in the Russian forces. And I
don't buy them being so stupid as to try and rip-off development funding
from either of those nations, as that would result in the shut down of a
major source of cash inflow for their military industries. Ain't gonna
happen, because if they lose their exports, they shrivel and die, 'cause the
Russian Federation just does not have the funds to keep them afloat by
itself.

Brooks

Actually, that is a joint project (the D-27 engines originate with
MMPP
Salut in Moscow, don't they?). The Russians bought into it up front,
then
backed out, or appeared to, and now they say they are back
onboard...but are
reportedly a bit slow in actually living up to their end of the
financial
bargain. Why? Because they are cash-strapped, plain and simple.

There's very interesting interview with Commander of RAF (Jan 2005).
"Commander of RAF decided do not answer questions about AN-70 a/c"
Russians actually doesn't/never been interested in this a/c. Cash is
not a reason- they have cash enough for modernization of all military
forces. Not mythical money like US who is economical bankrupt but live
oil profits.