Adding rudders to Logitech Wingman (can it be done)?

On 19-Feb-2005, "Mikael K" wrote:

I have previously posted a guide on how to do it...(I use a similar
setup...)
So hang on, and I will find it and repost.. ;o)

OK.. Found it... attached below...
Read it, try it.. ;o)

Any questions?? Please drop a post..

Regards
Mikael K

---------------

I have also been playing around with the pedals lately, as I am lucky to
have the Logitech Wingman Formula Wheel with pedals attached.
And inspired by all the latest postings about rudder-control and helos, I
wanted to try rudder-control by pedals
During my 'research' I have also read the FS9-document how to get pedals to
work as rudder from MS, and as you did I also find it a bit unclear what to
do about the basics...

But...
I have now managed to make a setup, where the rudder (and rear rotor on
helos) are going back to 'neutral' when releasing the pressure on either
pedal...
For my 'Flight-stick' I am using a Logitech Wingman Force Feedback Joystick.
Both controllers are connected with USB, and I am NOT using the Logitech
Profiler software to assign controls.

I will now try to explain what I did, to get rudder/rear rotor control with
the pedals...:

With the joystick and wheel/pedals connected and calibrated, the only change
I had to make from the default setup, was to adjust the way pedals worked
via 'Game Controllers' in the 'Control Panel'. Under 'Settings' in
'Properties' for the wheel, I did select 'Use pedals as...' to 'Combined
(Single-axis)'.

Then in FS9 I navigated to the 'Joystick Axis'-tab under 'Controls' -
'Assignments'
And by selecting the wheel under 'Joystick Type' (NOT first selecting
slew-mode, which I think is a misguiding from the editor of the
support-doc), I just assigned the 'Rudder Axis' to the pedals, by selecting
the axis and pressing either of the pedals ('Combined pedals' is now showing
as selected axis).
I did also checked the 'Reverse', in order to make the A/C go right when I
press the right pedal, and vise versa...
I then also removed any other unwanted control-assignments from the wheel,
as Aileron- and Elevator-axis, to eliminate possible influence, like from a
not-centered wheel, on the control of the A/C.

And that was it...
Out on the air-strip, up in the Cessna, and of I took with 'real'
rudder-steering by feet on the taxi-way and in the air..
All I have to do now, is to remember to disable 'Auto rudder' under realism,
when I want to fly with pedals..

I hope this makes sense to you, or just speak up, and I will try to explain
myself better... ;o)

Regards
Mikael K

--
Sorry.. no direct reply-email.. ;o)

Flight Sim newbie wrote:
Brett I. Holcomb wrote:
Check Bob Church's site - I believe it's www.stickworks.com.
Complicated web site.
It would be nice if www.stickworks.com had a SEARCH button.
One thing I'd like to know is how to run MSFS 2004 without having to
always put the CDROM in (what a pain in the seat of the pants).

I googled to find the "no cd" for MS FS 2004.
Apparently that was an oft-asked question.
I guess *everyone* wants to make MSFS 2004 more usable.
It's so irritating with that 4th CDrom (at least to me).
Luckily there *are* people who care about us, for example:
http://www.ceaero.com.br/dow_outr.shtml

Back on topic:
I googled for the CH Pro Rudder Pedals.
They apparently sell (at least) two flavors:
a) $100 CH Pro Rudder Pedals, USB, PN#: 300-111
b) $85 CH Pro Rudder Pedals, serial?, PN# 300-110
Interestingly, they seem to work for cars so maybe I wasted my money
buying the Formula GP Racing Wheel with gas & brake pedals.

But wait.
Just as I was editing this, I saw the post from Michael K.
You CAN use those pedals of yours... together with the stick.
Hhhmmmhhmmhmmm. Let me read that and respond separately.

Mikael K wrote:
Connect the pedals to the steering-wheel, & thru that to the PC.
That's easy as that's the way the "Formula GP Racing Wheel" is
designed.
This is great news!

The trick is to configure FS9 to ignore the steering wheel ...
I'm not sure what FS9 is but I'll guess that the same as MSFS 2004.
My very cluttered apartment is tiny so I prefer to reuse what I have.

It would be great if this hardware configuration would work:
- "Logitech Formula GP Racing Wheel"
--- Pedals attached to the steering wheel by teephone jack
--- Steering wheel attached to the PC by a USB hub
- "Logitech Wingman Attack 2"
--- Stick attached to the PC by a USB hub

I'll keep checking for your update tonight before I sleep.

Mikael K wrote:
I will now try to explain what I did, to get rudder/rear
rotor control with the pedals...:

Hhhhhhmmmmhhhhmmmmm.

It seemed a bit involved but doable.
I'm gonna try it and see what happens.
I have lower-end equipment than you, so that may be a problem.
Yet, even so, your writup seems followable.

If I understand the flow, we basically hook all three components up:
- Pedals to steering wheel (via telephone jack)
- Steering wheel to PC (via USB)
- Joystick to PC (via USB)

And then we basically turn off the steering wheel in MSFS 2004.
That leaves the pedals & joystick working (if I understand correctly).

This will be very interesting to try.
Thank you so very much for the tip.
I will test it out and (if & when successful) give an update.

This is a great newsgroup!

1. You don't need a "usb splitter". They don't need to be plugged into the
same USB port. They don't even need to be plugged into the same kind (USB
1.1 or USB 2.0) port. If you don't have any vacant ports, you can either
unplug something you're not using at the moment ("hot-swapping" is sort of
the point of USB) or buy a USB hub. A USB hub plugs into a USB port and
allows you to plug a bunch more USB things into, effectively expanding the
number of ports you can have. Theoretically, I think you can have 256 USB
ports

So, plug the joystick into one USB port and the rudder pedals into another.
The computer will straighten it out.

As for using your kids gas and brake pedal for rudder pedals, if you see
them in the drop down box in the MSFS2004 / Settings / Joystick Assignments
/ Axes area, feel free to give it a try. You won't break anything. If it
works, fine, if not then buy some USB rudder pedals.

That being said, you'll find there are differences between rudder pedals and
the Gas / Brake pedal for a driving controller. Push on the gas pedal and
you'll see the brake pedal doesn't move (and vice versa). Also, gas and
brake pedals normally involve more of a rotating the foot around the ankle
joint then pushing the whole pedal forward (I'm describing computer
peripherals here, not the actual operation of a car). I don't own one
anymore, but if I recall correctly they were seen by the computer as
separate axes, not one axis being turned right or left. Rudder pedals are
seen as one axis (potentiometer) being turned right or left.

The CH Pro Pedals I use can be used as Gas / Brake Pedals. It involves a
setting in the software (control panel, I think or else the CH manager
software) and using little plastic spacers that are provided with the pedals
to eliminate the push / pull sympathetic movement between the pedals.
Essentially, the toe brake axes become the gas and brake pedals. I guess
that function comes in most handy for our friends who use a flight yoke to
control their planes and also like driving sims.

Simply speaking... you're making this much more complicated than it is with
trying to find someplace to plug the pedals into the stick and worrying
about them using the same USB port. Just plug them both in to whatever USB
ports you have available and set them up in the game's settings. You'll
find every single joystick type thing you have plugged into the computer in
that dropdown box. If it shows up in the "game controllers" area off the
control panel, it will show up there and you can assign buttons and axes
from it to your game. The only wrinkle is that if the gas and brake pedal
are separate axes (and I suspect they are).

Or... (see below)

"Flight Sim newbie" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jay Williams kindly wrote:
... the original logitech Wingman Force (with the USB & serial port)
was designed to work with a game port set of rudder pedals.
No subsequent one has been so designed, to my knowledge.

BUT that doesn't mean you can't use rudder pedals with it.
Plug some rudder pedals in (I recommend the CH Pro Pedals,
in USB flavor... You'll love the toe brakes).

Thank you very much Jay for your time & patience and effort to help.
Do I understand you correctly below?

Almost


I definately have a "Logitech Wingman Attack 2" joystick (it says so
right on the base) which has only one wire which is USB. This joystick
has a trigger plus five buttons & one throttle slider. I do not see any
place to plug in any rudder pedals into this joystick (as someone
suggested) so I guess I have to add separate USB rudder-and-brake
pedals as you kindly suggested.


Probably

Since the pedals on my kid's "Logitech Formula GP Racing Wheel" use a
tiny telephone hand-set jack (even smaller than a normal telephone
jack), I really don't see how I can attach those existing car-driving
gas-and-brake pedals (unless there is a telephone-to-usb or
telephone-to-serial adapter out there).

Never heard or seen one, but *may* still be possible by selecting them as
the axes to assign to the rudder. I doubt it will work the way you want to
though, simply because rudders are designed to be one axis with a center you
deviate from left or right (causing the numbers sent to the computer to go
up or down from center). Gas and Brake pedals are designed to be two
different axes, each at zero, and going up when pressure is applied.

So, if I understand you correctly (and if I discount someone else's
suggestion to use the existing pedals), does that mean I should buy the
recommended set of rudder pedals & a USB splitter so I can plug both
the CH Pro rudders and the joystick into the same USB port?

Again, almost. you don't need a "splitter". They don't need to be plugged
into the same USB port. The computer is smart enough to keep track. If
you're out of USB ports you can buy a "Hub" which is a device (some are
powered, some aren't; I prefer the powered ones) that plugs into a USB port
on your computer and gives you from 3 to 7 more ports to plug devices into.

Last analogy. You want to watch TV and use your VCR and have a light on,
all at the same time. You don't have to buy a powerstrip and plug your TV
and VCR into the same electrical outlet unless you're out of outlets. The
hub is like the powerstrip. You can plug the TV into the outlet next to the
TV and if you want, the VCR and lamp into outlets across the room. It
doesn't matter where they are plugged in, just that they are.

DON'T GET THE SERIAL ONES -- GET THE USB FLAVOR

"Flight Sim newbie" wrote in message
oups.com...
Flight Sim newbie wrote:
Brett I. Holcomb wrote:
Check Bob Church's site - I believe it's www.stickworks.com.
Complicated web site.
It would be nice if www.stickworks.com had a SEARCH button.
One thing I'd like to know is how to run MSFS 2004 without having to
always put the CDROM in (what a pain in the seat of the pants).

I googled to find the "no cd" for MS FS 2004.
Apparently that was an oft-asked question.
I guess *everyone* wants to make MSFS 2004 more usable.
It's so irritating with that 4th CDrom (at least to me).
Luckily there *are* people who care about us, for example:
http://www.ceaero.com.br/dow_outr.shtml

Back on topic:
I googled for the CH Pro Rudder Pedals.
They apparently sell (at least) two flavors:
a) $100 CH Pro Rudder Pedals, USB, PN#: 300-111
b) $85 CH Pro Rudder Pedals, serial?, PN# 300-110
Interestingly, they seem to work for cars so maybe I wasted my money
buying the Formula GP Racing Wheel with gas & brake pedals.

But wait.
Just as I was editing this, I saw the post from Michael K.
You CAN use those pedals of yours... together with the stick.
Hhhmmmhhmmhmmm. Let me read that and respond separately.

Sounds like Mikael's gas / brake pedals use just one axis, so it should
work.

"Flight Sim newbie" wrote in message
oups.com...
Mikael K wrote:
I will now try to explain what I did, to get rudder/rear
rotor control with the pedals...:

Hhhhhhmmmmhhhhmmmmm.

It seemed a bit involved but doable.
I'm gonna try it and see what happens.
I have lower-end equipment than you, so that may be a problem.
Yet, even so, your writup seems followable.

If I understand the flow, we basically hook all three components up:
- Pedals to steering wheel (via telephone jack)
- Steering wheel to PC (via USB)
- Joystick to PC (via USB)

And then we basically turn off the steering wheel in MSFS 2004.
That leaves the pedals & joystick working (if I understand correctly).

This will be very interesting to try.
Thank you so very much for the tip.
I will test it out and (if & when successful) give an update.

This is a great newsgroup!

After I wrote the post warning you that the Gas / Brake pedal thing might
use two axes and therefore not work I saw where Mikael has managed to get it
to work. It sounds like his wheel / pedal combo uses one axis for the gas /
brake (or else logitech has the ability to make it look that way to the
computer). If so, I'd use that setup, unless you really like toe brakes...
For me, I rarely do driving games and if I did, I'd just use a joystick for
the wheel and adjust the pro pedals to act as a gas / brake pedal (as
previously described)

"Flight Sim newbie" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jay Williams kindly wrote:
... the original logitech Wingman Force (with the USB & serial port)
was designed to work with a game port set of rudder pedals.
No subsequent one has been so designed, to my knowledge.

BUT that doesn't mean you can't use rudder pedals with it.
Plug some rudder pedals in (I recommend the CH Pro Pedals,
in USB flavor... You'll love the toe brakes).

Thank you very much Jay for your time & patience and effort to help.
Do I understand you correctly below?

I definately have a "Logitech Wingman Attack 2" joystick (it says so
right on the base) which has only one wire which is USB. This joystick
has a trigger plus five buttons & one throttle slider. I do not see any
place to plug in any rudder pedals into this joystick (as someone
suggested) so I guess I have to add separate USB rudder-and-brake
pedals as you kindly suggested.

Since the pedals on my kid's "Logitech Formula GP Racing Wheel" use a
tiny telephone hand-set jack (even smaller than a normal telephone
jack), I really don't see how I can attach those existing car-driving
gas-and-brake pedals (unless there is a telephone-to-usb or
telephone-to-serial adapter out there).

So, if I understand you correctly (and if I discount someone else's
suggestion to use the existing pedals), does that mean I should buy the
recommended set of rudder pedals & a USB splitter so I can plug both
the CH Pro rudders and the joystick into the same USB port?

On 19-Feb-2005, "Jay Williams" wrote:

I saw where Mikael has managed to get it
to work. It sounds like his wheel / pedal combo uses one axis for the gas
/
brake (or else logitech has the ability to make it look that way to the
computer).

Just for the enlightning..
It is the logitech-driver that has the ability to switch between dual or
single-axis behavior.
The pedals are designed with dual-axis.. (think that goes with all of
logitech's pedals...)

Regards
Mikael K

--
Sorry.. no direct reply-email.. ;o)

"Flight Sim newbie" wrote in message
ups.com...
Not-My-Real-Name wrote:
Yes, you can use your wheel's brake & throttle pedals as rudders.

Thank you for your advice to help me simulate a Citabria 7ECA in MSFS.

The only problem with your suggested approach (it seems to me anyway)
is I don't see any way to attach the "Logitech Formula GP Racing Wheel"
separate gas-and-brake pedals to either the "Logitech Wingman Attack 2"
joystick or to the computer because the GP gas-and-brake pedals have
only a telephone connector (the USB part is in the steering wheel). The
steering wheel doesn't seem like a good substitute for a yolk or
joystick either, as it doesn't go up & down the steering column.


LOL!
You attach the steering wheel and the joystick to the PC AT THE SAME TIME
(ala the USB ports).
However, you put the wheel on the floor or to the side (it's not used), but
continue to use the pedals.

Make sure your joystick is the primary controller in Windows. For the
wheel/pedals, make sure your pedals are reported as two axis, not one (this
is a setting you adjust in the Logitech Wingman software).

Then when you're in the game, assign your axis to the joystick as needed,
but for rudder "press the pedals" to assign them.
The assignment will vary by game.