Lost comm procedures

Ron Garret wrote:
Is there an easy way to pull up all the plates for a particular airport
on line?

I like www.airnav.com. I'm sure there are others.

I did ask where COOGA was (actually I asked how it was spelled), but
neither I nor the controller picked on the fact that we had a major
disconnect going on.

Controllers are good at answering the questions you ask. You asked,
"How do you spell that", and he gave the right answer, "Charlie Oscar
Oscar Golf Alpha". You didn't ask anything more, so he assumed you
were happy. There's no reason for him to assume that "How do you
spell that" should also imply, "and just why the heck do you want me
to go there?"

The controller did express surprise that I wasn't familiar with COOGA

How did he "express surprise"? Did he say, "I'm surprised you aren't
familiar with COOGA"?

It sounds like you should intercept the LAX-323, fly that northwest to
IPIHO, then eastbound direct VNY, then continue with your clearance.

Yes, that's what it sounds like, but that can't be right. Continuing
with the clearance at that point would require making a 180 degree turn
(more or less) with no charted procedure for doing so (probably because
there are mountains on both sides).

I can only assume that the procedure designers took this into
account. Looking at the ILS-16R plate, I'd guess the highest point
within several miles of VNY is the 1520 which looks about 4 miles north of
VNY. You didn't mention what initial altitude you were given, but I'm sure
it was at least 2000. I also don't know what you're flying, but assuming
120 KTAS, turn diameter at standard rate is about 1.3 nm. If the turn
really was almost 180 degrees, there's nothing to keep you from making it a
right turn, away from the terrain.

And why to IPIHO? The lost comm procedure doesn't mention IPIHO. They
just say to intercept LAX323 and then as assigned.

I see what you're getting at. There is a certain amount of ambiguity here.
I don't see anything in the procedure which says IPIHO. It does say to
intercept the LAS-323, and your first en-route fix is VNY, so I just
figured following a heavy black line made sense.

I'm not so concerned with the mechanics of flying the approach in this
case as I am just figuring out what the rules say I'm supposed to do.
It really seems to me like this clearance had a bug in it, and it should
have been Canoga 8, COOGA, direct, not Canoga 8, VNY, direct.

Well, from the ground, that's really no better than what you got, since
none of the CNOG8 transitions get you to COOGA.

In article ,
Roy Smith wrote:

Ron Garret wrote:
Is there an easy way to pull up all the plates for a particular airport
on line?

I like www.airnav.com. I'm sure there are others.

I can only find one plate per URL here, just like all the other sources
of approach plates that I'm aware of. Am I missing something?

I did ask where COOGA was (actually I asked how it was spelled), but
neither I nor the controller picked on the fact that we had a major
disconnect going on.

Controllers are good at answering the questions you ask. You asked,
"How do you spell that", and he gave the right answer, "Charlie Oscar
Oscar Golf Alpha". You didn't ask anything more, so he assumed you
were happy. There's no reason for him to assume that "How do you
spell that" should also imply, "and just why the heck do you want me
to go there?"

No, it implied that I wasn't familiar with COOGA, which in turn implied
that I wasn't familiar with the approach that he thought I was supposed
to be flying.

The controller did express surprise that I wasn't familiar with COOGA

How did he "express surprise"? Did he say, "I'm surprised you aren't
familiar with COOGA"?

I don't remember the exact phraseology, but it was something like, "If
you're going to be flying around here you'd better get to know COOGA
intersection."

It sounds like you should intercept the LAX-323, fly that northwest to
IPIHO, then eastbound direct VNY, then continue with your clearance.

Yes, that's what it sounds like, but that can't be right. Continuing
with the clearance at that point would require making a 180 degree turn
(more or less) with no charted procedure for doing so (probably because
there are mountains on both sides).

I can only assume that the procedure designers took this into
account. Looking at the ILS-16R plate, I'd guess the highest point
within several miles of VNY is the 1520 which looks about 4 miles north of
VNY. You didn't mention what initial altitude you were given, but I'm sure
it was at least 2000.

4000. Maybe that's why the departure is designed the way it is. They
want you give you essentially a clockwise 360 to get up to cruising
altitude before heading West.

I also don't know what you're flying

An SR22.

, but assuming
120 KTAS, turn diameter at standard rate is about 1.3 nm. If the turn
really was almost 180 degrees, there's nothing to keep you from making it a
right turn, away from the terrain.

Do the TERPsters really expect someone to figure that out on the fly?


And why to IPIHO? The lost comm procedure doesn't mention IPIHO. They
just say to intercept LAX323 and then as assigned.

I see what you're getting at. There is a certain amount of ambiguity here.
I don't see anything in the procedure which says IPIHO. It does say to
intercept the LAS-323, and your first en-route fix is VNY, so I just
figured following a heavy black line made sense.

Turning left to SUANA (which is an IAF for the GPS approach) makes sense
too. But I'm not talking about what makes sense, I'm talking about the
rules.

I'm not so concerned with the mechanics of flying the approach in this
case as I am just figuring out what the rules say I'm supposed to do.
It really seems to me like this clearance had a bug in it, and it should
have been Canoga 8, COOGA, direct, not Canoga 8, VNY, direct.

Well, from the ground, that's really no better than what you got, since
none of the CNOG8 transitions get you to COOGA.

None of them get you to VNY either.

rg

Ron Garret wrote:

Roy Smith wrote:

I like www.airnav.com. I'm sure there are others.

I can only find one plate per URL here, just like all the other sources
of approach plates that I'm aware of. Am I missing something?

I hope I don't seem too critical here, but you seem so resistant about this...
and yes, I think you are missing that you are the one asking for help, and it
would be helpful to those who are trying to help you if you did more legwork,
and demanded less legwork of the people you are soliciting help from. It doesn't
seem so hard to me to include multiple links along with your question. You are
one person doing that preliminary research, saving several good-hearted people
from having to do it. I don't buy "It's too hard because I can't find a single
URL, so you do it".

snip

No, it implied that I wasn't familiar with COOGA, which in turn implied
that I wasn't familiar with the approach that he thought I was supposed
to be flying.

This theme has bothered me throughout the thread. Were you not told which
approach to expect? You shouldn't have to infer a choice of approaches based on
a fix that you are cleared to.

snip

Dave

In article 1109961293.32139@sj-nntpcache-3, Dave Butler
wrote:


I hope I don't seem too critical here, but you seem so resistant about this...

I wasn't being resistant, I was just asking a question. And I don't
think you're too critical, but I do think we have an honest difference
of opinion here. I don't think it would have saved anyone much effort
if I'd listed all the URLs for all the approaches into SNA. In general,
I think it's good to list a URL if it's a reference to some obscure bit
of information, but in the case of approach plates in a newsgroup
dedicated to IFR flying I assume that everyone knows where to find them,
and everyone has their own favorite source.

In any case, my question got answered so it's a moot point.

No, it implied that I wasn't familiar with COOGA, which in turn implied
that I wasn't familiar with the approach that he thought I was supposed
to be flying.

This theme has bothered me throughout the thread. Were you not told which
approach to expect? You shouldn't have to infer a choice of approaches based
on a fix that you are cleared to.

I was told to fly direct COOGA before I was cleared for the approach,
before I got ATIS, and before I was told which approach to expect. By
the time I was cleared I was so confused that I don't actually recall
whether the controller said "cleared for the VOR-A approach" or just
"cleared for the approach." (I contemplated asking for the tapes to go
over what had happened, but decided not to. This happened a while ago
so it's probably too late now.)

I appreciate all the feedback and advice. Thanks.

rg

Ron Garret wrote:
I don't think it would have saved anyone much effort
if I'd listed all the URLs for all the approaches into SNA.

Sigh. Yes it would have been easier to click directly on a link you posted
than for me to go look it up myself. It's really to your advantage to make
it easier for somebody to answer. The easier you make it, the more likely
you are to get good answers.

Eric Raymond wrote on this subject a while ago, it's worth reading his
essay. http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Roy Smith wrote:

Ron Garret wrote:
I don't think it would have saved anyone much effort
if I'd listed all the URLs for all the approaches into SNA.

Sigh. Yes it would have been easier to click directly on a link you posted
than for me to go look it up myself. It's really to your advantage to make
it easier for somebody to answer. The easier you make it, the more likely
you are to get good answers.

Plus, unless we know the state in which an airport is located, we can't even
find it on the NACO site.

In article , wrote:

Roy Smith wrote:

Ron Garret wrote:
I don't think it would have saved anyone much effort
if I'd listed all the URLs for all the approaches into SNA.

Sigh. Yes it would have been easier to click directly on a link you posted
than for me to go look it up myself. It's really to your advantage to make
it easier for somebody to answer. The easier you make it, the more likely
you are to get good answers.

Plus, unless we know the state in which an airport is located, we can't even
find it on the NACO site.

Well, I did mention is was southern California in the original post.
But if you go to the NACO DPP page and type in SNA (or any other airport
identifier) you get all the plates associated with that airport. (I
didn't know this until just now.) You don't need to know what state
it's in.

The URL for the NACO DPP page is:

http://www.naco.faa.gov/digital_tpp....005&end=3-17-2
005

but note that as the effective date is built in to this URL it will
change over time. This page:

http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp

contains a link that I presume gets updated to the current revision.

rg