Pilots Group Grades U.S. Aviation Security an 'F'

Yup. Good plan. Let's just trash business flying altogether and
let them all drive. Your plan might work okay for people going
someplace for a period of time .. but for business people who
often change their plans frequently .. how do you propose they
get their clothing to be where they are in a timely manner.

The single thing that would make the biggest difference in
security is to allow profiling. Until we look for the terrorists
themselves .. we're just ****ing in the wind.





"Denny" wrote in message
ups.com...
As someone who travels with the clothes I'm wearing and a book to read,
I have scant sympathy for either the airline or the government... For
people flying somewhere the imperative is to get them there safely, not
to get the 70 or 80 pounds of cargo per person there safely...

If I were Czar you would be limited to an overcoat, purse/briefcase,
one laptop or equal size carry on... and that's it... If you want to
ship 80 pounds of baggage, send it by UPS or FedEx...

All right now, at least 300 of you will react in outrage and
indignation... Well, I'm indignant and outraged also because hundreds
of millions of taxpayer dollars, including mine, are being spent on
xray machines and all kinds of technology all because folks ship the
contents of their house by passenger plane...

No baggage, no baggage screeners, just the normal pat down of your
person, no baggage carts, no or minimal xray machines, no lost luggage,
and on, and on... Why the airlines would be forced to drop the ticket
prices, and 2/3 of the airport screeners would be allowed to do
something productive for the national economy...

denny

The single thing that would make the biggest difference in
security is to allow profiling. Until we look for the terrorists
themselves .. we're just ****ing in the wind.

Yes, and not just terrorists. We should profile for other criminals
too, such as drug lords, child molesters, embezzlers, welfare cheats,
deadbeat dads, jaywalkers, athiests, and other evil people. Once this
is in place, we can enjoy the free society our forefathers died for.

Jose
--
Math is a game. The object of the game is to figure out the rules.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
The single thing that would make the biggest difference in
security is to allow profiling. Until we look for the terrorists
themselves .. we're just ****ing in the wind.

Yes, and not just terrorists. We should profile for other criminals
too, such as drug lords, child molesters, embezzlers, welfare cheats,
deadbeat dads, jaywalkers, athiests, and other evil people. Once this
is in place, we can enjoy the free society our forefathers died for.


So on one hand we have organized gangs with a demonstrated ability of
killing thousands of civilians at a time and a strongly stated desire of
killing hundreds of thousands and on the other hand we have embezzlers,
welfare cheats, etc.

If you look really hard Jose, you may be able to dimly make out a
substantive distinction.

If you look really hard Jose, you may be able to dimly make out a substantive distinction.

Yes, =I= can make that distinction. However I do not trust our
government to do so.

Jose
--
Math is a game. The object of the game is to figure out the rules.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

So on one hand we have organized gangs with a demonstrated ability of killing thousands of civilians at a time and a strongly stated desire of killing hundreds of thousands and on the other hand we have embezzlers, welfare cheats, etc.

If you look really hard Jose, you may be able to dimly make out a substantive distinction.

(oops - pressed the wrong button.)

Yes, =I= can make that distinction. However I do not trust our
government to do so. I have personally been on the wrong end of a
machine gun for insisting (politely) that my film be hand inspected at
LGA rather than run through the X-ray machine. The screener insisted
that there were "secret laws" that applied, something that was only
straightend out (in my favor) when I called the FAA out on them. The
same thing happened to me in DC when I dashed into an alcove (a
legitimate entrance to a museum) in a rainstorm; I didn't want to enter
the museum, but didn't want my film X-rayed. Ten security guards
escorted me back into the rainstorm. (I swear the entire contingent was
called out).

Does "carnivore" ring a bell, or has everyone forgotten the gross
intrusion of privacy =that= entailed? The profile of the Columbine
killers is the same as a good portion of our youth, most of whom are
perfectly good citizens with odd (or not even that odd) tastes.
Profiling effectively criminalizes harmless but unusual behavior, and
this is bad for society in a way that will not be apparant for twenty
years, and cannot be undone.

The presumption of innocence upon which this country is based becomes
nothing more than doubletalk if we need to prove our innocence before
being presumed so.

We are doing =far= more damage to ourselves than the terrorists ever did.

Jose
--
Math is a game. The object of the game is to figure out the rules.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
So on one hand we have organized gangs with a demonstrated ability of
killing thousands of civilians at a time and a strongly stated desire
of killing hundreds of thousands and on the other hand we have
embezzlers, welfare cheats, etc.

If you look really hard Jose, you may be able to dimly make out a
substantive distinction.


(oops - pressed the wrong button.)

Yes, =I= can make that distinction. However I do not trust our
government to do so. I have personally been on the wrong end of a
machine gun for insisting (politely) that my film be hand inspected at
LGA rather than run through the X-ray machine.

I'm impressed. I go through LGA, DCA, IAD and other airports several
times a month; have not seen TSA pulling pulling machine guns at all,
much less during polite discussion.

We are doing =far= more damage to ourselves than the terrorists ever did.

Well, the terrorists have killed several thousand of us and want to kill
as many as they can get to. Unless TSA has been mass murdering
travelers with their metal detector wands I presume you are referring to
damage to your ego.

It *is* quite necessary to make sure that law enforcement is held
accountable for any unreasonable treatment whether it is force during
arrest or searching someone they should not. Having said that, the
current mindlessly PC driven policies prevent focusing on more likely
killers is going to get people killed.

I'm impressed. I go through LGA, DCA, IAD and other airports several times a month; have not seen TSA pulling pulling machine guns at all, much less during polite discussion.

It's changed some. This was during the early days.

Unless TSA has been mass murdering travelers with their metal detector wands I presume you are referring to damage to your ego.

No. My ego is unimportant. I am referring to the damage to the freedom
of Americans to just be a little odd if they feel like it. The freedom
to fly small airplanes near the Capitol or the Space Shuttle. The
freedom to eat like a civilized person aboard an airliner. The freedom
to buy an airplane ticket with cash. The freedom to read without being
scrutinzed by law enforcement. The freedom to do a hundred little
things, neither of which matter much, but in aggregate add up.

I'm also talking about the resources spent on "protecting" stuff that
either doesn't need protecting, cannot (in principle) be protected
anyway, or is being protected from the wrong thing. I'm talking about
the way of =thinking= that has changed in this country, where people are
looked upon with suspicion if they are not Good Christians or Good Jews.

I'm talking about the mindset of fear that has half the country eager to
surrender even more freedoms for the illusion that "Good Government" is
going to make all these problems "go away", as long as we give up our
own ability to defend ourselves and just trust in law enforcement (front
page news yesterday in the NY Times - police detectives murder for the Mob)

I'm talking about the people who will one day be shot down for violating
one of those stupid pop-up TFRs meant to protect the egos of the high
officials and of Disney World.

Terrorists can destroy our economy (and kill many people as collateral
damage) just by running naked through the airport security area
backwards. If we profile young Arab males, the next attack will be from
an older German female. The next weapon will be casually dropped into
an American granma's bag, and retrieved later (or left to be discovered
by the TSA). There are =so= many ways around profiling, and if you
think Osama hasn't thought of this, you underestimate him and his ilk.

All he has to do is destroy the heart - the foundation - of this
country, and he has won. Profiling =is= the evil against which we stand.

Jose
--
Math is a game. The object of the game is to figure out the rules.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:

Terrorists can destroy our economy (and kill many people as collateral
damage) just by running naked through the airport security area
backwards.

Interesting technique. Perhaps TSA should keep a supply of hospital
gowns to cover naked terrorists rampaging about the airport.

If we profile young Arab males, the next attack will be from
an older German female.

This assumes equal willingness of young Arab males and older German
females to be mass murderers.

There are =so= many ways around profiling, and if you
think Osama hasn't thought of this, you underestimate him and his ilk.

I don't want to be an apologist for TSA or any other government agency
but how do you explain the fact that despite numerous attempts the
terrorists have been unable to kill anyone else in this country since 9/11?

Either Osama and Al Queda don't deserve their Allah like reputation or
TSA & the rest of DHS have been effective.

Our economy is doing extremely well; the envy of Europe in fact and we
survived more draconian restrictions and minor personal inconveniences
during WWII.

We are winning and will prevail despite whiners and Chicken Littles.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:04:45 GMT, Doug Carter wrote:

We are doing =far= more damage to ourselves than the terrorists ever did.

Well, the terrorists have killed several thousand of us and want to kill
as many as they can get to.

by headcount? maybe. a good part of the WTC were non us citizens. you also
have to count in all the dead soldiers you lost during your search for ..
aaahh ... WMD. - whatever. this will always lead to an endless discussion,
so I give in.

but (!): how many of your principles have you as a nation already given up?
in this matter, the terrorists have reached farther than with a few car
bombs.

#m

--
http://www.terranova.net/content/images/goering.jpg

Martin Hotze wrote:

but (!): how many of your principles have you as a nation already given up?

Zero.

The only significant erosions to the Constitution have been by caused by
the gradual expansion of government over the years.

Face it, the terrorists have been completely ineffective in the USA.
The USA economy dipped briefly from the shock of 9/11 and then entered a
stronger growth phase. USA unemployment continues to be about half that
of the EU.

It doesn't sell newspapers to say so or sooth the old Europe's sense of
inferiority but 9/11 will be recorded in history as a complete blunder
by Mideast dictator wannabes that led to a general democratic revolution
in that part of the world.

USA's greatest threat is Rock and Roll.