Visulalizing the Finish Cylinder

"1MoClimb" wrote in message
oups.com...
Fiveniner and KC will tell you or your grieving family that it's at
least a macho way to go!

J7

I don't know you Herb and you don't know me so why post personal insults
like this? Just to make sure that you understand things.....I am a
pediatric intensivist and have seen many, many children die. You are sorely
mistaken if you somehow think you know more than I about grieving.

You and some of the other safety proponents just do not get it. You are
swallowing hook, line and sinker any and all proposals that have the word
"safety" attached to them without eversomuch as questioning whether in fact
they may be safer. Using your reasoning we should do away with gaggle
starts and thermaling with more than one glider.....I have been closer than
you described on numerous occasions in both of those situations.

JJ has attempted to approach this from a CD perspective and in that light
would agree that the CD of the contest you are describing had to accept some
amount of responsibility for tasking in such a way as to allow this conflict
to occur. All of us supporting the gate finish feel that a final common
(steering) turn is important and that "hooking" the gate no longer is
acceptable.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

Once again, Casey is much politer than I'll be. Herb, if you knew me,
you'd know that I take safety very, very seriously. I'm more than happy
to discuss, quietly, away from the crowd and face to face the poor
judgement exhibited by pilots of any level of experience. I'm willing
to take the denial, the anger, and the threats... yes, threats, because
if I'm talking to you it's because I've grown weary of running to
accident scenes. (It doesn't take many.) I'm also willing to hear them
out when they think I'm flying outside my envelope.

There's one thing that kills more pilots than anything else: IGNORANCE.
The problem with ignorance is that it makes the flight envelope very
naroow indeed. The tragedy of ignorance is that it can be overcome with
very little effort.

I'll share with you a reflection of the 18M Nationals at Uvalde last
summer. Over the past few years, I've been taking the lead for the
gaggle more and more. One of the great disadvantages of doing this is
that everytime a find a good thermal, I have to soften my initial pull
and turn to enter the core because there's just no telling who is going
to be behind me and whether or not they are paying attention. I've had
pilots follow me, then make absolutely to effort at all to avoid me as
I try to center on the core. They simply barrel straight through.

7F and I started together one day. Just the two of us. I was able to
gain a little on him in the first couple of glides, so he was a little
behind (not more than a quarter mile, at most). I came in to a strong
core, and started a gentle pull, then realized who was behind me. I
pulled hard and banked to 60 degrees. What a beautiful site as Sam
pulled up underneath me, within no more than two wingspans, and parked
at 180 degrees, in the core and at the same angle of bank. True
airmanship - not practiced by nearly enough of us.

I'll keep your contest ID in mind. I have no quibble with you. Your
entitled to your opinion, of finish gates and me. But I'll keep my
pulls gentle if I know you're behind me. For my sake, not yours.

Cheers,

OC

I don't know you Herb and you don't know me so why post personal
insults
like this? Just to make sure that you understand things.....I am a
pediatric intensivist and have seen many, many children die. You are
sorely
mistaken if you somehow think you know more than I about grieving. ..

Casey,

You are certainly right, I wouldn't know how you might console a
grieving family, I went too far in a bad attempt to be cynical.
Comparing the situation I described with pre-start gaggles and
on-course situations including multiple gliders in the same airspace
doesn't make sense. The altitude and low RELATIVE speeds give us
second chances that we don't have down low and when flying in opposing
directions. I have flown through many finish gates feeling just as
exhilarated as you and enjoying every moment of it. Sad thing is that
the outcome of a midair in that situation just doesn't leave us any
second chances. Let's do our low finishes away from the contest crowds
with a reliable spotter on the ground that makes sure nobody else might
get involved.

Again, sorry for getting personal with you and anyone else feeling
strongly about flying low and fast and let's all be careful out there!

Herb, J7

Herb,

Didn't see this before I posted. Thanks. You've earned my respect. My
respect may not count for much in the scheme of things, but even a
penny gained...

Fly safe. The best part of soaring is sitting around in the evening
remembering the particulars of your flight with friends over a cold
beer. Everything should be geared towards a safe arrival home, whether
by trailer, through a finish gate, through the wall of a cylinder, or a
simple, unhurried arrival at the IP.

OC

Rotate the gate?
Alternate gates?
My God, we got people that can't remember which way to finish and your
solution is to use the finish line one day and the finish cylinder, the
next? Have you ever heard the term KISS? It stands for Keep It Simple,
Stupid and is a time honered way to prevent screw-ups. We have contests
with several classes and they don't all go on the same task. To further
complicate things, we often change tasks, sometimes in the air. The
KISS rule is now streatched pretty thin and you want to add another
layer of confusion by "rotating the gate"? Which way and for which
class? BTW, rotating doesn't solve anything, the pilots will still head
for the nearest corner, won't they?
I see your comments as nothing more than attempt to keep alive a dying
dinosaur, so that you can continue to have "fun". P7 shared his near
death experience in the dinosaur gate and you told him there was poor
judgement and ignorance involved. Well, now we have a point on which we
can agree; Poor judgement to keep using the proven unsafe finish gate
and ignorance on the part of an organization that continues to allow
its use.
JJ Sinclair
BTW, you'll see no dinosaurs at Montague.

JJ, I'm genuinely surprised. You're getting hornery in your old age!
And maybe just a little too uncivil... ;-)

Let's get one thing clear. I've asked, repeatedly, for you to explain
how we're to manage traffic on the face of cylinder during ASTs. And
you've offered NOTHING specific, except to imply that I simply don't
get it. I am raising valid concerns, have put some small effort into
explaining my concerns in prose and pictures, and I'm getting dogmatc
replies. Which tells me that there aren't well-reasoned answers, yet.
They'll come, I'm sure, but apparently not until we've scared ourselves
silly a few times as we learn the disadvantages of the cylinder by
trial and error. Note that other than Montague last year (only 13
competitors), I'm not aware of a cylinder being used for non MAT tasks
at the Stds, 15s, 18, or Open Nats... that is, we haven't tested it in
conditions where a dozen or more gliders of equal performance might
approach the cyliner in a very short span of time.

I accept that you've established yourself as the Cylindrical Champion
and thus accept a certain amount of righteous indignation that I and
others might prefer and justify demon finish lines. But now you need to
convince a few of us who have valid concerns about high/low speed
conflicts that these have been thought through and adequately
addressed.

As I noted earlier, I see the dynamics of the cylinder as very much
similar to the old start gate. Worse, since the effective gate size is
smaller and the wing level runs much longer (at least in the start gate
you were able to scan traffic for several minutes while circling at the
IP prior to your run - even so, it was a anxious half minute in the
gate).


C'mon JJ. Give me some substance. Show me some real numbers. Use my
valid assumptions to prove me wrong instead of offering up an idyllic
paint by numbers picture.

Cheers,

Chris O'Callaghan

How about you going flying a little bit more instead of running dry
arguments on a newsgroup?

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


a écrit dans le message de news:
...
JJ, I'm genuinely surprised. You're getting hornery in your old age!
And maybe just a little too uncivil... ;-)

Let's get one thing clear. I've asked, repeatedly, for you to explain
how we're to manage traffic on the face of cylinder during ASTs. And
you've offered NOTHING specific, except to imply that I simply don't
get it. I am raising valid concerns, have put some small effort into
explaining my concerns in prose and pictures, and I'm getting dogmatc
replies. Which tells me that there aren't well-reasoned answers, yet.
They'll come, I'm sure, but apparently not until we've scared ourselves
silly a few times as we learn the disadvantages of the cylinder by
trial and error. Note that other than Montague last year (only 13
competitors), I'm not aware of a cylinder being used for non MAT tasks
at the Stds, 15s, 18, or Open Nats... that is, we haven't tested it in
conditions where a dozen or more gliders of equal performance might
approach the cyliner in a very short span of time.

I accept that you've established yourself as the Cylindrical Champion
and thus accept a certain amount of righteous indignation that I and
others might prefer and justify demon finish lines. But now you need to
convince a few of us who have valid concerns about high/low speed
conflicts that these have been thought through and adequately
addressed.

As I noted earlier, I see the dynamics of the cylinder as very much
similar to the old start gate. Worse, since the effective gate size is
smaller and the wing level runs much longer (at least in the start gate
you were able to scan traffic for several minutes while circling at the
IP prior to your run - even so, it was a anxious half minute in the
gate).


C'mon JJ. Give me some substance. Show me some real numbers. Use my
valid assumptions to prove me wrong instead of offering up an idyllic
paint by numbers picture.

Cheers,

Chris O'Callaghan

The finish gate at TSA, when I CD a contest is a line. All task's will
have a final turnpoint 5 miles south of TSA. This way we funnel all
finishers the same direction. No finishers are allowed over the runway,
they must finish on the east side of the field for a landing to the
south. 95% of our contests have a south wind.

You guys are trying to legislate rules by common sense...Common sense is
hard to find.

Sam Fly

wrote:
Herb,

Didn't see this before I posted. Thanks. You've earned my respect. My
respect may not count for much in the scheme of things, but even a
penny gained...

Fly safe. The best part of soaring is sitting around in the evening
remembering the particulars of your flight with friends over a cold
beer. Everything should be geared towards a safe arrival home, whether
by trailer, through a finish gate, through the wall of a cylinder, or a
simple, unhurried arrival at the IP.

OC