Total electrical failure - (hypothetical)

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...
C J Campbell wrote:
This comes very close to the category of a non-critical emergency,
defined
as an emergency where, no matter what you do, you are going to die.

That's a hell of a defeatist attitude, and demonstrably wrong since
people HAVE survived exactly this situation.


Yes, and people have survived jumping out of the plane without a parachute
at 20,000 feet, too. But the odds are against it. Personally, I think the
way you deal with an electrical failure in IMC with no GPS or handheld radio
is that you avoid putting yourself in a situation where that can happen.

I would hate to have to rely on a handheld GPS in such an emergency,
though
of course it would be welcome as better than nothing.

Actually, it is DRAMATICALLY better than nothing. It is more accurate,
more precise, and more reliable than any NDB and most VOR's.

NDB, yes. VOR, highly questionable.


The ability to shoot an overlay using a handheld GPS should be part of
the repertoire of any instrument pilot. If you don't know how, ask
your instructor to show you.

I would agree with that.


Newer single engine aircraft with glass cockpits have backup
instruments and
some sort of backup electrical system, even if it is only certified
for 30
minutes.

That's because they lack vacuum

Nonsense. Most of them have backup vacuum instruments and even have dual
vacuum pumps, which older airplanes lack.


They also have terrain displays so that you have at least a small
chance of descending out of the clouds without killing yourself.

Terrain displays are available on the newer high-end handheld GPS
units.

True, mine has that.


Beyond that, I
would say that you are taking a serious risk if you insist on flying
a
single engine piston airplane in actual IMC beyond, say, punching
through a
thin layer.

That must be why self-flown business flights, which do this routinely,
are so much more dangerous than personal flights, which rarely do this.
Oh, wait...

In fact, self-flown business flights do not do this routinely, especially in
single engine piston aircraft. They are less dangerous than personal flights
because the pilots are better trained, the planes are better equipped, and
they are not going to kill themselves with low level VFR maneuvers, which is
the biggest killer of GA pilots.

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:52:31 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

I would hate to have to rely on a handheld GPS in such an emergency,
though
of course it would be welcome as better than nothing.

Actually, it is DRAMATICALLY better than nothing. It is more accurate,
more precise, and more reliable than any NDB and most VOR's.

NDB, yes. VOR, highly questionable.

The fact that a GPS is handheld has little to do with its accuracy.

With WAAS enabled, most handhelds are good to 10meters, and all GPS
are better than 100m accurate. Throw in the pseudo-HSI displays, and
I guarantee I can fly a more accurate emergency approach (assuming the
AI is still working ok) with the handheld GPS than I can with an NDB,
VOR, or LOC alone.

Where the handheld lacks is reliability, influenced by factors like:
no RAIM, lack of permanent antenna installations. Having said that,
I have flown with a Garmin 295 for 3 or 4 years now, and it is
accurate and reliable.

Would I launch into IMC with known electrical problems - of course
not. However, the odds having having a total electrical failure +
G295 failure + Iow IMC are small enough that I believe the risk to
flight caused by navigation/electrical failure is much lower than
mechanical failure or pilot error.

-Nathan

"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:52:31 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

I would hate to have to rely on a handheld GPS in such an emergency,
though
of course it would be welcome as better than nothing.

Actually, it is DRAMATICALLY better than nothing. It is more accurate,
more precise, and more reliable than any NDB and most VOR's.

NDB, yes. VOR, highly questionable.

The fact that a GPS is handheld has little to do with its accuracy.


Where the handheld lacks is reliability

Exactly. Moreover, some handhelds are much more reliable than others.


Would I launch into IMC with known electrical problems - of course
not.

Good for you. I suspect some others here would.

I'd sure like to know who survived a free fall from 20,000 feet without a
parachute.
Really, I'm curious.

MJC

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

Yes, and people have survived jumping out of the plane without a parachute
at 20,000 feet, too. But the odds are against it. Personally, I think the
way you deal with an electrical failure in IMC with no GPS or handheld
radio
is that you avoid putting yourself in a situation where that can happen.

Quite a few he http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/wreckage.html

The one I recalled without googling for it was the flight attendant.
Doesn't she hold a Guinness world record?

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:27:59 -0600, "MJC" wrote:

I'd sure like to know who survived a free fall from 20,000 feet without a
parachute.
Really, I'm curious.

MJC

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

Yes, and people have survived jumping out of the plane without a parachute
at 20,000 feet, too. But the odds are against it. Personally, I think the
way you deal with an electrical failure in IMC with no GPS or handheld
radio
is that you avoid putting yourself in a situation where that can happen.

"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
Quite a few he http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/wreckage.html


I was thinking more along the lines of these:

http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffallers.html

Well, that's not what I had in mind with the original description. All
of those instances have one thing in common; that the people who survived
were ALL still inside some part of the airplane.
What I was looking for was a "naked" fall (not inside a part of an
aircraft) of 20,000 without anything to hang onto.

MJC

"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
Quite a few he http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/wreckage.html

The one I recalled without googling for it was the flight attendant.
Doesn't she hold a Guinness world record?

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:27:59 -0600, "MJC" wrote:

I'd sure like to know who survived a free fall from 20,000 feet without a
parachute.
Really, I'm curious.

MJC

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

Yes, and people have survived jumping out of the plane without a
parachute
at 20,000 feet, too. But the odds are against it. Personally, I think
the
way you deal with an electrical failure in IMC with no GPS or handheld
radio
is that you avoid putting yourself in a situation where that can
happen.

"MJC" wrote in message
...
Well, that's not what I had in mind with the original description. All
of those instances have one thing in common; that the people who survived
were ALL still inside some part of the airplane.
What I was looking for was a "naked" fall (not inside a part of an
aircraft) of 20,000 without anything to hang onto.

MJC

So was I. However, that site lists some of those as "free fallers."

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:26:58 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


"MJC" wrote in message
. ..
Well, that's not what I had in mind with the original description. All
of those instances have one thing in common; that the people who survived
were ALL still inside some part of the airplane.
What I was looking for was a "naked" fall (not inside a part of an
aircraft) of 20,000 without anything to hang onto.

MJC

So was I. However, that site lists some of those as "free fallers."

And as CJ pointed out, same site,
http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffallers.html has entries for two
falls from 20k and 22k, outside of the destroyed airframe, and
survived.

"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:26:58 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


"MJC" wrote in message
.. .
Well, that's not what I had in mind with the original description.
All
of those instances have one thing in common; that the people who
survived
were ALL still inside some part of the airplane.
What I was looking for was a "naked" fall (not inside a part of an
aircraft) of 20,000 without anything to hang onto.

MJC

So was I. However, that site lists some of those as "free fallers."

And as CJ pointed out, same site,
http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffallers.html has entries for two
falls from 20k and 22k, outside of the destroyed airframe, and
survived.

Unfortunately, the site lacks any documentation for those claims. They
*might* be true, but all the site itself tells us is that someone somewhere
in the world says so on some unspecified basis.

--Gary