compass turns with high mounted compass (Cessna 152)

Compass turns are not required by the PTS. In my opinion, teaching and
practicing compass turns is a complete waste of time that could be more
profitably spent on more practical maneuvers. OTOH, timed turns make
perfectly good sense.

Imagine that you are an instrument-rated pilot flying on a dark and stormy
night. Your vacuum pump fails (or your vacuum-operated attitude
indicator/heading indicator fails). Your wife is scared, your kids are
crying, the turbulence is moderate to extreme, and you are trying to
remember whether to lag or lead the rollout by...the latitude? One-half the
latitude? Can't remember, and the situation is not getting any better.

Compare that with simply rolling into a standard rate turn (still hard to
maintain in turbulence) and watching the seconds tick by. BTW, nobody
expects you to roll out anywhere close to a desired heading when conditions
are really bad.

Bob Gardner

"paul kgyy" wrote in message
oups.com...
I think the problem is that, with a high-mounted compass, you are
looking out the window every time you look at the compass. I'm not
sure how examiners deal with this.

Compass turns are not required by the PTS. In my opinion, teaching and
practicing compass turns is a complete waste of time that could be more
profitably spent on more practical maneuvers. OTOH, timed turns make
perfectly good sense....

Compare that with simply rolling into a standard rate turn (still hard to
maintain in turbulence) and watching the seconds tick by. BTW, nobody
expects you to roll out anywhere close to a desired heading when conditions
are really bad.

Yes, compass turns are not in the new PTS. However, I think that it's still a
skill worth learning. I prefer (and teach) using timing for small turns
(heading change 60 degrees or less), and the compass for larger turns. All
you really need to remember is that if the desired heading is north, you roll
out early, and if the desired heading is south, you go past it before rolling
out. This gets you close, and then you used a small timed turn to get closer.
I really think this is easier than trying to figure out the time required for
say, a right turn from 320 to 180. There's also the effect of the turn
coordinator calibration.

But I wouldn't insist on compass turns if the pilot makes acceptable timed
turns.

I still think you are wasting your time and that of your students. Compass
turns are not practical...that's why they haven't been in the PTS for a long
time; it's not just a change in the most recent PTS. Turn coordinator
calibration is a non-issue, except for CFII checkrides. So you aim for 270
and end up with 250...is this life-threatening? Easy to fix, and absolutely
no one will notice.

Anyone who cannot pick two headings off of the heading indicator, count the
number of ten-degree/45-degree tick marks between them, and divide by three
may not be intellectually suited to aviation.

Bob



"Barry" wrote in message ...
Compass turns are not required by the PTS. In my opinion, teaching and
practicing compass turns is a complete waste of time that could be more
profitably spent on more practical maneuvers. OTOH, timed turns make
perfectly good sense....

Compare that with simply rolling into a standard rate turn (still hard to
maintain in turbulence) and watching the seconds tick by. BTW, nobody
expects you to roll out anywhere close to a desired heading when
conditions are really bad.

Yes, compass turns are not in the new PTS. However, I think that it's
still a skill worth learning. I prefer (and teach) using timing for small
turns (heading change 60 degrees or less), and the compass for larger
turns. All you really need to remember is that if the desired heading is
north, you roll out early, and if the desired heading is south, you go
past it before rolling out. This gets you close, and then you used a
small timed turn to get closer. I really think this is easier than trying
to figure out the time required for say, a right turn from 320 to 180.
There's also the effect of the turn coordinator calibration.

But I wouldn't insist on compass turns if the pilot makes acceptable timed
turns.

On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:56:39 -0800, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

I still think you are wasting your time and that of your students. Compass
turns are not practical...that's why they haven't been in the PTS for a long
time; it's not just a change in the most recent PTS. Turn coordinator
calibration is a non-issue, except for CFII checkrides. So you aim for 270
and end up with 250...is this life-threatening? Easy to fix, and absolutely
no one will notice.

Anyone who cannot pick two headings off of the heading indicator, count the
number of ten-degree/45-degree tick marks between them, and divide by three
may not be intellectually suited to aviation.

Bob



Amen. But why do any dividing at all? Each number on a compass rose
is 10 seconds. Count the numbers between your present heading and
the desired heading (just go "ten,twenty, thirty...") and interpolate
the overage/underage, and you'll be very close when you roll out,
with probably one more little turn to tidy up.

But you are absolutely right about the compass turn stuff. It's damn
near as ridiculous as parallel, teardrop and direct entries. Or
"reverse sensing". But let's not go there...



"Barry" wrote in message ...
Compass turns are not required by the PTS. In my opinion, teaching and
practicing compass turns is a complete waste of time that could be more
profitably spent on more practical maneuvers. OTOH, timed turns make
perfectly good sense....

Compare that with simply rolling into a standard rate turn (still hard to
maintain in turbulence) and watching the seconds tick by. BTW, nobody
expects you to roll out anywhere close to a desired heading when
conditions are really bad.

Yes, compass turns are not in the new PTS. However, I think that it's
still a skill worth learning. I prefer (and teach) using timing for small
turns (heading change 60 degrees or less), and the compass for larger
turns. All you really need to remember is that if the desired heading is
north, you roll out early, and if the desired heading is south, you go
past it before rolling out. This gets you close, and then you used a
small timed turn to get closer. I really think this is easier than trying
to figure out the time required for say, a right turn from 320 to 180.
There's also the effect of the turn coordinator calibration.

But I wouldn't insist on compass turns if the pilot makes acceptable timed
turns.

I agree. Nothing like inserting high workload items such as compass turns
into situations where stress has created tunnel vision.

Bob

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:56:39 -0800, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

I still think you are wasting your time and that of your students. Compass
turns are not practical...that's why they haven't been in the PTS for a
long
time; it's not just a change in the most recent PTS. Turn coordinator
calibration is a non-issue, except for CFII checkrides. So you aim for 270
and end up with 250...is this life-threatening? Easy to fix, and
absolutely
no one will notice.

Anyone who cannot pick two headings off of the heading indicator, count
the
number of ten-degree/45-degree tick marks between them, and divide by
three
may not be intellectually suited to aviation.

Bob



Amen. But why do any dividing at all? Each number on a compass rose
is 10 seconds. Count the numbers between your present heading and
the desired heading (just go "ten,twenty, thirty...") and interpolate
the overage/underage, and you'll be very close when you roll out,
with probably one more little turn to tidy up.

But you are absolutely right about the compass turn stuff. It's damn
near as ridiculous as parallel, teardrop and direct entries. Or
"reverse sensing". But let's not go there...



"Barry" wrote in message
...
Compass turns are not required by the PTS. In my opinion, teaching and
practicing compass turns is a complete waste of time that could be more
profitably spent on more practical maneuvers. OTOH, timed turns make
perfectly good sense....

Compare that with simply rolling into a standard rate turn (still hard
to
maintain in turbulence) and watching the seconds tick by. BTW, nobody
expects you to roll out anywhere close to a desired heading when
conditions are really bad.

Yes, compass turns are not in the new PTS. However, I think that it's
still a skill worth learning. I prefer (and teach) using timing for
small
turns (heading change 60 degrees or less), and the compass for larger
turns. All you really need to remember is that if the desired heading
is
north, you roll out early, and if the desired heading is south, you go
past it before rolling out. This gets you close, and then you used a
small timed turn to get closer. I really think this is easier than
trying
to figure out the time required for say, a right turn from 320 to 180.
There's also the effect of the turn coordinator calibration.

But I wouldn't insist on compass turns if the pilot makes acceptable
timed
turns.

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 21:50:10 GMT, wrote:

But you are absolutely right about the compass turn stuff. It's damn
near as ridiculous as parallel, teardrop and direct entries. Or
"reverse sensing". But let's not go there...

cfeyeeye,

Agree with everything but reverse sensing.

I hear on ATIS a lot at JAN for approaches, expect back course 16 right
(16L is closed), so learning to "pull the needle in" is important in this
neck of the woods.

Allen

On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 20:04:53 -0600, A Lieberman
wrote:

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 21:50:10 GMT, wrote:

But you are absolutely right about the compass turn stuff. It's damn
near as ridiculous as parallel, teardrop and direct entries. Or
"reverse sensing". But let's not go there...

cfeyeeye,

Agree with everything but reverse sensing.

I hear on ATIS a lot at JAN for approaches, expect back course 16 right
(16L is closed), so learning to "pull the needle in" is important in this
neck of the woods.

Allen


There is no such thing as "reverse sensing". Instruments don't change
the way they sense.

There is only "reverse thinking".

But let's not get started on that.

There is no such thing as "reverse sensing". [...]
There is only "reverse thinking".

There's also "reverse polish notation".

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
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