Military Green Laser Pointer

Greasy Rider© @invalid.com wrote:

Those things can cause temporary blindness and should be banned.

They also have the reported ability to be directed, hand-held, into the
cockpits of flying aircraft for seconds at a time.

(And anyone who believes that should try holding the dot on a leaf a
quarter mile away to see how well they do.)

Hysteria aside for just a moment, have a read of ...

http://www.equipped.org/lasers_airliners.htm


"Noah Little" wrote in message
...
Greasy Rider© @invalid.com wrote:

Those things can cause temporary blindness and should be banned.

They also have the reported ability to be directed, hand-held, into the
cockpits of flying aircraft for seconds at a time.

(And anyone who believes that should try holding the dot on a leaf a
quarter mile away to see how well they do.)

"Cockpit Colin" wrote:

Hysteria aside for just a moment, have a read of ...

http://www.equipped.org/lasers_airliners.htm

Interesting and reasonable...thanks...

--

--Gord
(use gordon in email)

"Without detonation, your car won't
move. That's what makes engines go".

"In my car, the high octane fuel detonates
better than the lower octane grades.
Fortunately for me, it doesn't PREVENT DETONATION".

-Burnore.

For what it's worth, I own one of the green variety - it's great for
pointing out starts etc at night.

My feeling is that if someone shined in the cockpit from (at least) 1 or 2
miles away, ...

(a) It would give me a bit of a fright - be damned annoying, but not
damaging - possibly causing a precautionary go-around at worst.

(b) Being that the beam is visable, it should be possible to give a
pretty accurate description of where it came from.

(c) Unless you mounted it mechanically, it would be pretty hard to keep
it shining in a cockpit.

Given the current talk on the topic I'm tempted to setup a controlled test
(with an additional safety pilot) where I'll get someone to shine it at me
(perhaps from the tower) during an approach in a GA aircraft.

Cockpit Colin wrote:
For what it's worth, I own one of the green variety - it's great for
pointing out starts etc at night.

My feeling is that if someone shined in the cockpit from (at least) 1 or 2
miles away, ...

(a) It would give me a bit of a fright - be damned annoying, but not
damaging - possibly causing a precautionary go-around at worst.

While it is almost impossible to cause permanent damage (pretty much
the definition of class IIIa), it might ruin your night vision for a
few moments or more. If it was an innopportune time plus a panicky
pilot, this could cause worse than a precautionary go-around.
Realistically, that is unlikely.

Cockpit Colin wrote:
(c) Unless you mounted it mechanically, it would be pretty hard to keep
it shining in a cockpit.

And if you did mount it mechanically, it would be pretty hard to keep it
shining in a cockpit. :-)

(Point being, getting more than a momentary "flash" visible to a pilot
would require more sophistication than is available to the average
backyard laser-waver.)
--
Noah

"Cockpit Colin" wrote:

For what it's worth, I own one of the green variety - it's great for
pointing out starts etc at night.

My feeling is that if someone shined in the cockpit from (at least) 1 or 2
miles away, ...

(a) It would give me a bit of a fright - be damned annoying, but not
damaging - possibly causing a precautionary go-around at worst.

(b) Being that the beam is visable, it should be possible to give a
pretty accurate description of where it came from.

(c) Unless you mounted it mechanically, it would be pretty hard to keep
it shining in a cockpit.

Given the current talk on the topic I'm tempted to setup a controlled test
(with an additional safety pilot) where I'll get someone to shine it at me
(perhaps from the tower) during an approach in a GA aircraft.

FYI, I'm quite sure that a Canadian Armed Forces helicopter pilot
suffered some eye damage from being hit by a powerful laser from
a Russian trawler on the West coast several years ago. It was
hushed up pretty quick but I'm fairly sure of the info.

--

--Gord
(use gordon in email)

"Without detonation, your car won't
move. That's what makes engines go".

"In my car, the high octane fuel detonates
better than the lower octane grades.
Fortunately for me, it doesn't PREVENT DETONATION".

-Burnore.

Yes, Detonation is a normal condition and
it occurs every time you have ignition,
you really need to get over that!

-Josh

"Cockpit Colin" wrote:

For what it's worth, I own one of the green variety - it's great for
pointing out starts etc at night.

My feeling is that if someone shined in the cockpit from (at least) 1 or 2
miles away, ...

(a) It would give me a bit of a fright - be damned annoying, but not
damaging - possibly causing a precautionary go-around at worst.

(b) Being that the beam is visable, it should be possible to give a
pretty accurate description of where it came from.

(c) Unless you mounted it mechanically, it would be pretty hard to keep
it shining in a cockpit.

Given the current talk on the topic I'm tempted to setup a controlled test
(with an additional safety pilot) where I'll get someone to shine it at me
(perhaps from the tower) during an approach in a GA aircraft.

Regardless of what that web page said, or of your feelings
outlined above, I still put shining a laser, or for that matter
any other light source, at an aircraft - cockpit or not - in the
same category as shooting a rifle at an aircraft.

Sure, the probability of either bringing down the aircraft [or
even hitting it for that matter] is low. But mishap after mishap
report has identified the mishap as a chain of low probability
events and omissions that combined to render the mishap
inevitable. There is no way of some yahoo having fun pointing
his laser or rifle at an aircraft knowing whether or not the
aircraft is in the midst of such a chain, and that the momentary
distraction of a laser flash in a pilot's eye, or a round ripping
through a cockpit window might be the final event in the chain
that terminates the flight in a smoking pile of wreckage.

For verisimilitude, why don't you try that flight as an engine
out landing, with an electrical failure on a NORDO approach.
That might give us a better idea of whether or not a laser flash
can be distracting.
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]

I hear what you're saying - in the end, it becomes a matter of chance. I've
no doubt that under any circumstances a laser in the cockpit is something we
really don't need - if it happens to be during the likes of a SE approach
(especially in the event of it triggering a single-engine go-around) then
yes, it could most definately be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

I just hope it never happens to me, although I have to say I'd prefer it to
someone taking pot-shots with a rifle.





Regardless of what that web page said, or of your feelings
outlined above, I still put shining a laser, or for that matter
any other light source, at an aircraft - cockpit or not - in the
same category as shooting a rifle at an aircraft.

Sure, the probability of either bringing down the aircraft [or
even hitting it for that matter] is low. But mishap after mishap
report has identified the mishap as a chain of low probability
events and omissions that combined to render the mishap
inevitable. There is no way of some yahoo having fun pointing
his laser or rifle at an aircraft knowing whether or not the
aircraft is in the midst of such a chain, and that the momentary
distraction of a laser flash in a pilot's eye, or a round ripping
through a cockpit window might be the final event in the chain
that terminates the flight in a smoking pile of wreckage.

For verisimilitude, why don't you try that flight as an engine
out landing, with an electrical failure on a NORDO approach.
That might give us a better idea of whether or not a laser flash
can be distracting.
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]

"Cockpit Colin" wrote:

I hear what you're saying - in the end, it becomes a matter of chance. I've
no doubt that under any circumstances a laser in the cockpit is something we
really don't need - if it happens to be during the likes of a SE approach
(especially in the event of it triggering a single-engine go-around) then
yes, it could most definately be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

I just hope it never happens to me, although I have to say I'd prefer it to
someone taking pot-shots with a rifle.

Serendipity strikes with a vengeance. This article just appeared
in this morning's Washington Post, "Lasers To Signal Airspace
Breaches - Sky in Region to Be Constantly Scanned"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2005Apr15.html

"The U.S. military will begin using an elaborate network of
cameras and lasers next month to scan the sky over Washington and
flash colored warning beams at aircraft that enter the nation's
most restricted metropolitan airspace."

It goes on to explain how a system of camera/laser units will
cover most of the restricted area covering a roughly 50 mi radius
centered on Washington, extending to North of Baltimore, South of
Quantico, and including all three major airports, National,
Dulles, and BWI, in the region. [Derived from a chart
accompanying the print article, but not available online. The
article itself says the camera/lasers will cover a roughly 30 mi
radius. Given my skepticism of average media reporter/editor
understanding in military/tech things, I'll buy into the 30 miles
after seeing feedback from pilots. ;-]

The article does address the ideas raised in this thread; saying:

"Unlike pointers and other eye-damaging lasers that have raised
safety concerns among pilots, the military's beams are
low-intensity and safe enough for the eyes yet distinctive enough
to alert pilots that something's wrong, officials say. From
government building rooftops, the lasers will pinpoint an
aircraft from 20 miles away and flash a quick red-red-green
sequence repeatedly. The cameras will be overseen by NORAD
officials from multiple locations, including Colorado Springs;
Cheyenne, Wyo.; and the Washington area. NORAD operators will
activate the laser beams if a pilot does not respond to radio
contact or an aircraft intercept.

"Researchers who developed the technology say the laser beam is
so narrowly targeted that other nearby aircraft will not be able
to see it. Curtis Davis, a researcher at MIT Lincoln Laboratory
who helped develop the system, said the beam is stronger than a
laser pointer, but more diffuse. "We've taken the size of the
beam and made it 15,000 times bigger," Davis said. "It's a foot
in diameter."

Hmm. 12"/15,000 = 0.0008"? That's an awfully tight beam from a
laser pointer. Wonder if/how much a laser pointer diffuses going
up to flight altitudes? [I know, I know, coherent beams, but I'm
old enough to have been so canalized by Boy Scout flashlights
that by the time lasers rolled around ...]
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]