Have you ever...

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
. com...

Way back in the 30s, some pilots would spin through an overcast and then
recover underneath in the clear. Unless the ceiling was 200', that is.
Can you imagine? Open cockpit, rain spraying you and there you go into an
intentional spin into the merk. Must have had huge balls and tiny
brains....


Edgar Bergen was a cousin once removed. I feel like I am talking to a
member of the family!

Actually those pilots did indeed have a lot of courage, but certainly NOT
tiny brains. Just the opposite.

Remember, they did NOT have gyro instruments. While it is possible, if you
are EXTREMELY careful, to make in instrument letdown through an overcast
with only a magnetic compass, a steady foot, good trim and courage it is a
lot easier to put the airplane in a stable condition that will lose altitude
quickly. Most of those airplanes would pop out of a spin in a quarter turn
or less and lose no more than two or three hundred feet while doing it. A
spin is STABLE. You cannot dive into the ground at Vne + from a spin. Most
of those early airplanes would lose less than 400 feet per turn and the
airspeed would never get over about 90 mph while in a spin. An inadvertent
spiral is the most likely outcome from trying to fly instruments without any
and that will allow the airspeed to build up well over Vne. If you attempt
to jerk the airplane out of a high speed spiral when you see ground rapidly
approaching you will probably pull the wings off. Prompt recovery from a
spin will leave you wings level and only slightly faster than normal cruise
airspeed allowing you to find a field and put the darn thing down.

Compared to the available alternatives at the time, spinning through the
overcast was actually one of the safest options available and actually
pretty hard to mess up by sloppy piloting. :-)

Letting down with only a magnetic compass is a LOT trickier, albeit
possible. Do not practice this alone or in a real overcast! In the
northern hemisphere turn to a heading of 180 degrees. Trim the airplane for
best glide speed and adjust the throttle for a descent rate not to exceed
500 fpm with 300 probably somewhat safer. Remove you hands from the
controls and SIT ON THEM. :-) Carefully, using you feet, nudge the magnetic
compass back to the big "S" whenever it begins to stray out of the window.
Nudge it gently because it is wiggly as all get out. If your airspeed
remains constant, taken care of with the trim only, and you heading does not
change, you must be flying straight. If you fly straight and continue a
steady and reasonable descent you will descend in a straight course and
eventually wind up below the overcast with a controllable descent rate. Of
course, if the hilltops extend up into the clouds you may fly into something
hard and unyielding before you see the ground below you.

Both of these techniques do work. I can attest to that personally, because
if they had not, I wouldn't be writing this today. I do not recommend these
if you have gyros available. However, I have been trapped where I had to
make an "instrument" letdown or climbout when flying in an antique airplane
that had no electrical system and no gyros of any kind. Not fun, not real
safe, but certainly doable by a properly trained pilot.

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

Highflyer wrote:

A spin is STABLE. You cannot dive into the ground at Vne + from a spin.

There are aircraft which go into a spiral dive after a couple of turns,
so be sure to know the spin characteristics fo yours before attempting a
spin in IMC.

Stefan

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:13:25 +0200, Stefan
wrote:

Highflyer wrote:

A spin is STABLE. You cannot dive into the ground at Vne + from a spin.

There are aircraft which go into a spiral dive after a couple of turns,
so be sure to know the spin characteristics fo yours before attempting a
spin in IMC.

Stefan

Among such airplanes that won't stay in a spin is Highflyer's Stinson
Reliant. Well, I don't know for sure about his but I do know for sure
about my Reliant - after about three turns, it evolves into a spiral
dive - I've tried to hold it in a spin and failed.

Klein

"Klein" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:13:25 +0200, Stefan
wrote:

Highflyer wrote:

A spin is STABLE. You cannot dive into the ground at Vne + from a spin.

There are aircraft which go into a spiral dive after a couple of turns,
so be sure to know the spin characteristics fo yours before attempting a
spin in IMC.

Stefan

Among such airplanes that won't stay in a spin is Highflyer's Stinson
Reliant. Well, I don't know for sure about his but I do know for sure
about my Reliant - after about three turns, it evolves into a spiral
dive - I've tried to hold it in a spin and failed.

Klein


Klein,

To the best of my knowledge and the rumours I have heard from WWII Stinson
Reliant pilots ( mostly British ) no has ever been able to hold the Stinson
Reliant, at least the V77 model built as an AT19, into a spin for more than
three turns. When it was certified, after the war, as the V77 the FAA
required a placard on the dashboard saying "Intentional spins are
prohibited" :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

NOTE: The annual rec.aviation Pinckneyville Flyin is coming up May 20,21,
and 22. Email Mary now if you are planning to drop in at
so she can arrange groceries. If you are a vegetarian let her know some
food preferences. She is doing special meals for vegetarians and would LOVE
some input on what they would prefer to eat while we are munching down on
large chunks of slightly charred cow. :-)

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Highflyer wrote:

A spin is STABLE. You cannot dive into the ground at Vne + from a spin.

There are aircraft which go into a spiral dive after a couple of turns, so
be sure to know the spin characteristics fo yours before attempting a spin
in IMC.

Stefan

That cannot happen if they remain in the spin. There are indeed some
aircraft, my current ride is one, that will not remain in a spin, even with
full prospin controls. Most of the aircraft being flown back in the
twenties and early thirties did not have that problem and would remain in a
spin quite nicely.

I will admit that my current ride was designed in 1936 and manufactured in
1942 for the Army Air Corps. Quite a few of the WWII aircraft did NOT have
real good spin characteristics.

Many aircraft designed and certified AFTER WWII were never spun even for
certification.

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

Highflyer wrote:
I will admit that my current ride was designed in 1936 and manufactured in
1942 for the Army Air Corps. Quite a few of the WWII aircraft did NOT have
real good spin characteristics.


I'm new around here. What is your current ride?




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Highflyer wrote:

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
. com...

Way back in the 30s, some pilots would spin through an overcast and then
recover underneath in the clear. Unless the ceiling was 200', that is.
Can you imagine? Open cockpit, rain spraying you and there you go into an
intentional spin into the merk. Must have had huge balls and tiny
brains....



Edgar Bergen was a cousin once removed. I feel like I am talking to a
member of the family!

Actually those pilots did indeed have a lot of courage, but certainly NOT
tiny brains. Just the opposite.

Remember, they did NOT have gyro instruments. While it is possible, if you
are EXTREMELY careful, to make in instrument letdown through an overcast
with only a magnetic compass, a steady foot, good trim and courage it is a
lot easier to put the airplane in a stable condition that will lose altitude
quickly. Most of those airplanes would pop out of a spin in a quarter turn
or less and lose no more than two or three hundred feet while doing it. A
spin is STABLE. You cannot dive into the ground at Vne + from a spin. Most
of those early airplanes would lose less than 400 feet per turn and the
airspeed would never get over about 90 mph while in a spin. An inadvertent
spiral is the most likely outcome from trying to fly instruments without any
and that will allow the airspeed to build up well over Vne. If you attempt
to jerk the airplane out of a high speed spiral when you see ground rapidly
approaching you will probably pull the wings off. Prompt recovery from a
spin will leave you wings level and only slightly faster than normal cruise
airspeed allowing you to find a field and put the darn thing down.

Compared to the available alternatives at the time, spinning through the
overcast was actually one of the safest options available and actually
pretty hard to mess up by sloppy piloting. :-)

Letting down with only a magnetic compass is a LOT trickier, albeit
possible. Do not practice this alone or in a real overcast! In the
northern hemisphere turn to a heading of 180 degrees. Trim the airplane for
best glide speed and adjust the throttle for a descent rate not to exceed
500 fpm with 300 probably somewhat safer. Remove you hands from the
controls and SIT ON THEM. :-) Carefully, using you feet, nudge the magnetic
compass back to the big "S" whenever it begins to stray out of the window.
Nudge it gently because it is wiggly as all get out. If your airspeed
remains constant, taken care of with the trim only, and you heading does not
change, you must be flying straight. If you fly straight and continue a
steady and reasonable descent you will descend in a straight course and
eventually wind up below the overcast with a controllable descent rate. Of
course, if the hilltops extend up into the clouds you may fly into something
hard and unyielding before you see the ground below you.

Both of these techniques do work. I can attest to that personally, because
if they had not, I wouldn't be writing this today. I do not recommend these
if you have gyros available. However, I have been trapped where I had to
make an "instrument" letdown or climbout when flying in an antique airplane
that had no electrical system and no gyros of any kind. Not fun, not real
safe, but certainly doable by a properly trained pilot.

The latter doesn't work in rough air, whereas, a spining descent will.
So, as you say, the old-time pilots were actually using their brains
rather well in making a spinning descent through an impenetrable overcast.


Matt