Avgas in France has reached $7.50/gal !

Jay Honeck wrote:

Every indicator I can find shows that the French have killed general
aviation -- or nearly so -- for everyone but the very rich.

If I didn't know it before, I'd do so now: You've never been in France.
I have. You're just plain wrong.

Stefan

In article , says...

Jay Honeck wrote:

Every indicator I can find shows that the French have killed general
aviation -- or nearly so -- for everyone but the very rich.

If I didn't know it before, I'd do so now: You've never been in France.
I have. You're just plain wrong.



I think Jay is neither completely right, nor completely wrong.
I don't know any "very rich" people flying in France, but all ther people I do
know are those who have managed to allocate a sufficient chunk of spare cash.
Many are young, with no family yet, who have a small apartment (or still live
with their parents) and other compromises in life. When they get married, and
baby comes along, flying stops. Often you see them coming back in their 40's,
when they manage to get the budget back on track.

I think it's true, even obvious, that the cost of flying in Europe is the main
reason why there are relatively few who take it up. And I think it's just as
obvious that the fuel price, rental prices and other use taxes account for
much of this expense.

I don't think it's ridiculous to say the authorities in France are "killing"
general aviation. Many - probably most - private pilots in France feel this
way, and it's clearly expressed in the aviation press. The authorities in
Europe do not see GA as a useful, economically beneficial instrument, but as a
high-risk hobby. Add to this the perceived "pollution" (air, noise and
land-use) and you have a double-whammy that Europeans are sensitive to - risk
and pollution.

There is also an attitude difference in pilots. Many Europeans are more
oriented toward leisure flying, and long for the unfettered days when they
could take to the skies in their warbirds and do a few spins. Many Americans
enjoy the challenge of using their planes to go somewhere, and as such their
attitude is much closer to a professional transport mindset. In this respect,
it may be an exaggeration to say the European authorities are "killing" GA -
instead they are setting the standard much higher - squeezing out the leisure
sector, and reducing the activity to those who are willing and able to move up
to a more professional standard - that includes equipment, mission profile and
mindset. American regulations and costs allow plenty of room for both types of
activities (and quite a few others).

The very high investment (time and money) required for IR training in Europe
is a good example of setting the bar high. The weather in northern Europe
precludes any serious notion of transportation under VFR. You cannot plan any
trip several days ahead of time and have a reasonable expectation of being
able to complete it under VFR. If you want to go IFR - you have to make the
grade. The committment level has to be high - otherwise you will stay close to
your home field, and close to the ground, where you will have plenty of
freedom to exercise your risky, polluting hobby.

G Faris

G Farris wrote:

I think it's true, even obvious, that the cost of flying in Europe is the main
reason why there are relatively few who take it up.

Of course flying cost much more in Europe than in the USA. Roughly said,
VFR on light singles cost twice as much. But I don't think cost is the
main reason. It is one of several reasons. Those who really want to fly
usually can manage it. (OTOH, twins or IFR are out of the range for most
people.)

I don't think it's ridiculous to say the authorities in France are "killing"
general aviation. Many - probably most - private pilots in France feel this
way, and it's clearly expressed in the aviation press.

Don't believe everything that's written in the press, even aviation
press. Yes, regulations are tight. Airspace in Europe is very congested,
and it has been a political decision that commercial aviation gets
priority. But nobody wants to "kill" something.

There is also an attitude difference in pilots. Many Europeans are more
oriented toward leisure flying,

Exactly. Private flying here is mostly recreational flying. And as such,
costs are looked at with another view. Do I prefer to spend 5'000 for
flying or do I prefer to go skiing with my family? This decision pushes
out all those who don't *really* want to fly.

On the other hand, don't forget that soaring is much more popular here
than in the USA. When you look at flying as a recreational hobby, then
soaring is much more rewarding than motorized flight (and cheaper, too).
There is a healthy soaring community in most parts of Europe, but
especially in France.

Stefan

"GF" == G Farris writes:

GF In article ,
GF says...
Jay Honeck wrote:
Every indicator I can find shows that the French have killed
general aviation -- or nearly so -- for everyone but the very
rich.
If I didn't know it before, I'd do so now: You've never been
in France. I have. You're just plain wrong.


GF I think Jay is neither completely right, nor completely wrong.
GF I don't know any "very rich" people flying in France, but all
GF ther people I do know are those who have managed to allocate a
GF sufficient chunk of spare cash. Many are young, with no
GF family yet, who have a small apartment (or still live with
GF their parents) and other compromises in life. When they get
GF married, and baby comes along, flying stops. Often you see
GF them coming back in their 40's, when they manage to get the
GF budget back on track.

This is a very good description of GA in the USA! It certainly
describes my flying experience: PP-ASEL at age 20, accumulated all of
80 hours, then stopped flying for 17 years to finish school, get
married, buy a house, ....

Then I joined a club and rented for 10 years, starting in my late
30s. Finally bought a 2-seat airplane for $20K and really enjoy it.

GF I think it's true, even obvious, that the cost of flying in
GF Europe is the main reason why there are relatively few who
GF take it up.

Relatively few Americans take it up, or Japanese, or [insert rich
industrial country]. Why? Because most people flat out don't like
flying, and for sure don't like flying in small planes.

Every indicator I can find shows that the French have killed general
aviation -- or nearly so -- for everyone but the very rich.

If I didn't know it before, I'd do so now: You've never been in France. I
have. You're just plain wrong.

Okay, Stefan -- the ball is in your court.

Show me one statistic that disproves that aviation in France hasn't been
decimated by the French government's predatory aviation gas tax strategy.

I've searched, and can't find one.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:


Stefan

Jay Honeck wrote:


Show me one statistic that disproves that aviation in France hasn't been
decimated by the French government's predatory aviation gas tax strategy.

Decimated since when?
Post a reference statistic and time as a starting point.

What taxes particularly are you referring to?

Where does France get its processed petroleum products and what factors
make the cost of avgas what it is?

You just pulled thos whole argument out of your ass, dear, and while it
might make an interesting thesis for a classroom debate, you should quit
defending it unless you have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.


And why are people required to choose aviation as a pursuit based on the
population of their country? If you took every airport in the US and
laid them next to each other they'd probably take up an area the size of
France, but for some reason you consider it unfair that they haven't
accomplished exactly that phenomenon.

"Stella Starr"
You just pulled thos whole argument out of your ass, dear, and while it
might make an interesting thesis for a classroom debate, you should quit
defending it unless you have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.


(ass)ertions :-)


Montblack

Decimated since when? Post a reference statistic and time as a starting
point.

Well, let's start with the fact that France's efforts at flight pre-date our
own. Is 1903-ish far enough back for you?

What taxes particularly are you referring to?

Avgas taxes. The price of avgas in France (as the subject of this thread
states) has now exceeded $7.50 per gallon, solely as a result of their very
aggressive tax policies.

Where does France get its processed petroleum products and what factors
make the cost of avgas what it is?

I presume that they get their petroleum from the same worldwide supply as
the U.S. -- yet our avgas is "only" $3.30-ish per gallon.

You just pulled thos whole argument out of your ass, dear, and while it
might make an interesting thesis for a classroom debate, you should quit
defending it unless you have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.

As opposed to your well-thought out, carefully crafted counter-arguments?

;-)

The facts are clear. It is your unwillingness to accept them that is
puzzling. Why -- especially in an aviation forum -- are you (and Larry,
Martin, and a couple of other folks) defending a foreign tax system that
more than DOUBLES the price of aviation? This makes no sense to me.

And why are people required to choose aviation as a pursuit based on the
population of their country?

They're not. But based on the population of France, there should be many
times more pilots -- ESPECIALLY given their proud heritage of flight.

I'm still waiting for an answer: If it's NOT the outrageous cost of avgas
that has nearly killed general aviation in France, what is it? Why, in the
land of Bleriot and Saint-Exupery, are there so (relatively) few men and
women feeling the call to the skies, if NOT for price considerations?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:VAT9e.5840$r53.5583@attbi_s21...
Decimated since when? Post a reference statistic and time as a starting
point.

Well, let's start with the fact that France's efforts at flight pre-date
our own. Is 1903-ish far enough back for you?

What taxes particularly are you referring to?

Avgas taxes. The price of avgas in France (as the subject of this thread
states) has now exceeded $7.50 per gallon, solely as a result of their
very aggressive tax policies.

Where does France get its processed petroleum products and what factors
make the cost of avgas what it is?

I presume that they get their petroleum from the same worldwide supply as
the U.S. -- yet our avgas is "only" $3.30-ish per gallon.

You just pulled thos whole argument out of your ass, dear, and while it
might make an interesting thesis for a classroom debate, you should quit
defending it unless you have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.

As opposed to your well-thought out, carefully crafted counter-arguments?

;-)

The facts are clear. It is your unwillingness to accept them that is
puzzling. Why -- especially in an aviation forum -- are you (and Larry,
Martin, and a couple of other folks) defending a foreign tax system that
more than DOUBLES the price of aviation? This makes no sense to me.

And why are people required to choose aviation as a pursuit based on the
population of their country?

They're not. But based on the population of France, there should be many
times more pilots -- ESPECIALLY given their proud heritage of flight.

I'm still waiting for an answer: If it's NOT the outrageous cost of avgas
that has nearly killed general aviation in France, what is it? Why, in
the land of Bleriot and Saint-Exupery, are there so (relatively) few men
and women feeling the call to the skies, if NOT for price considerations?

The French are more culturally mature and have perhaps outgrown such
childish pursuits.

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:VAT9e.5840$r53.5583@attbi_s21...
Decimated since when? Post a reference statistic and time as a starting
point.

Well, let's start with the fact that France's efforts at flight pre-date
our own. Is 1903-ish far enough back for you?

What taxes particularly are you referring to?

Avgas taxes. The price of avgas in France (as the subject of this
thread
states) has now exceeded $7.50 per gallon, solely as a result of their
very aggressive tax policies.

Where does France get its processed petroleum products and what factors
make the cost of avgas what it is?

I presume that they get their petroleum from the same worldwide supply
as
the U.S. -- yet our avgas is "only" $3.30-ish per gallon.

You just pulled thos whole argument out of your ass, dear, and while it
might make an interesting thesis for a classroom debate, you should
quit
defending it unless you have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.

As opposed to your well-thought out, carefully crafted
counter-arguments?

;-)

The facts are clear. It is your unwillingness to accept them that is
puzzling. Why -- especially in an aviation forum -- are you (and Larry,
Martin, and a couple of other folks) defending a foreign tax system that
more than DOUBLES the price of aviation? This makes no sense to me.

And why are people required to choose aviation as a pursuit based on
the
population of their country?

They're not. But based on the population of France, there should be
many
times more pilots -- ESPECIALLY given their proud heritage of flight.

I'm still waiting for an answer: If it's NOT the outrageous cost of
avgas
that has nearly killed general aviation in France, what is it? Why, in
the land of Bleriot and Saint-Exupery, are there so (relatively) few men
and women feeling the call to the skies, if NOT for price
considerations?

The French are more culturally mature and have perhaps outgrown such
childish pursuits.

You forgot the :-). It was a joke wasn't it?