Avgas in France has reached $7.50/gal !

So, to summarize: Yes, there is fewer GA in Europe. But even if you would
wipe all avgas taxes, there wouldn't be more.

You admit that predatory taxation has added 25% to the cost of GA in France
(which is a gross under-estimation, BTW) -- and in the same breath say that
it has NO impact on it?


That is the most absurd assertion I've seen in Usenet -- and I've seen some
whoppers over the years.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

So, to summarize: Yes, there is fewer GA in Europe. But even if you would
wipe all avgas taxes, there wouldn't be more.

You admit that predatory taxation has added 25% to the cost of GA in France
(which is a gross under-estimation, BTW) -- and in the same breath say that
it has NO impact on it?

That is the most absurd assertion I've seen in Usenet -- and I've seen some
whoppers over the years.

Well let's go back to the premise of the post, that avgas costs $7.50 a gallon
in France. Avgas in France would be priced in Euros, so somebody's converting
Euros to US dollars using the current conversion rate. That's mathematically
accurate, but doesn't tell the whole story. The dollar is very weak to the
euro right now, which affects Americans buying European goods and Europeans
buying American goods, but doesn't affect Europeans buying domestic products as
much. For example, if the price of the dollar versus euros fell tomorrow to
1/2 of what it is today, it would appear that avgas would cost USD 15.00 a
gallon. This would appear to American to be much more expensive, but would not
really change what avgas would cost to a French(wo)man in France.

European countries tend to tax consumption higher, the US doesn't. One reason
avgas is kept expensive is because autogas is very expensive to encourage
public transit and excellent high speed rail service. If avgas would be priced
lower then autogas, there would be an incentive to burn avgas on the road
(which wouldn't do cat converter much good.) Note that Jet-A is much cheaper
in Europe. This is another reason driving the diesel piston aviation engine
and several European companies are leading this technology.

Aviation gasoline will continue to get more expensive in the US, and eventually
may not be available at any price. It can be found (in the US as of last
week) selling at $4.82/US Gallon so you can say that the US is working hard to
catch up with France, and that's without all of those European taxes as well.
Avgas is a boutique fuel that must be specially handled and is produced in
very limited quantities compared to other products, with a lot of liability for
the slightest mishap. More and more corporate and other high consumption
aviation gas consumption has been shifted to aircraft that burn Jet A, further
decreasing the economies of scale for 100ll. Also very importantly, it
contains a *lot* of tetraethyl lead (despite that LL designation), and leaded
autogas was eventually banned by 1996 in the US for a good reason.

Surprisingly essence avec plomb (super) is still available in France, although
it does cost more then sans plomb so it isn't purchased nearly as much. .

Jim wrote:

European countries tend to tax consumption higher, the US doesn't. One reason
avgas is kept expensive is because autogas is very expensive to encourage
public transit and excellent high speed rail service. If avgas would be priced
lower then autogas, there would be an incentive to burn avgas on the road
(which wouldn't do cat converter much good.)

How prevalent is the use of a cat in Europe these days? Ten years ago, nearly
all the gas was still leaded and catalytic converters were nearly unknown. I'm
aware that they've gone to mainly unleaded fuel, but do most European cars now
have the converters as well?

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

George Patterson wrote:

How prevalent is the use of a cat in Europe these days?

It's been mandatory for I think more than 10 years now. (Can't tell you
the exact year by heart.) For new cars, that is.

Stefan

In article 6adae.2502$RD.1939@trndny02, George Patterson wrote:
How prevalent is the use of a cat in Europe these days? Ten years ago, nearly

Completely. You can't even buy leaded car gas in the British Isles.


--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Jim" wrote in message ...
Jay Honeck wrote:

So, to summarize: Yes, there is fewer GA in Europe. But even if you
would
wipe all avgas taxes, there wouldn't be more.

You admit that predatory taxation has added 25% to the cost of GA in
France
(which is a gross under-estimation, BTW) -- and in the same breath say
that
it has NO impact on it?

That is the most absurd assertion I've seen in Usenet -- and I've seen
some
whoppers over the years.

Well let's go back to the premise of the post, that avgas costs $7.50 a
gallon
in France. Avgas in France would be priced in Euros, so somebody's
converting
Euros to US dollars using the current conversion rate. That's
mathematically
accurate, but doesn't tell the whole story. The dollar is very weak to
the
euro right now, which affects Americans buying European goods and
Europeans
buying American goods, but doesn't affect Europeans buying domestic
products as
much. For example, if the price of the dollar versus euros fell tomorrow
to
1/2 of what it is today, it would appear that avgas would cost USD 15.00 a
gallon. This would appear to American to be much more expensive, but
would not
really change what avgas would cost to a French(wo)man in France.

European countries tend to tax consumption higher, the US doesn't. One
reason
avgas is kept expensive is because autogas is very expensive to encourage
public transit and excellent high speed rail service. If avgas would be
priced
lower then autogas, there would be an incentive to burn avgas on the road
(which wouldn't do cat converter much good.) Note that Jet-A is much
cheaper
in Europe. This is another reason driving the diesel piston aviation
engine
and several European companies are leading this technology.

Aviation gasoline will continue to get more expensive in the US, and
eventually
may not be available at any price. It can be found (in the US as of last
week) selling at $4.82/US Gallon so you can say that the US is working
hard to
catch up with France, and that's without all of those European taxes as
well.
Avgas is a boutique fuel that must be specially handled and is produced
in
very limited quantities compared to other products, with a lot of
liability for
the slightest mishap. More and more corporate and other high consumption
aviation gas consumption has been shifted to aircraft that burn Jet A,
further
decreasing the economies of scale for 100ll. Also very importantly, it
contains a *lot* of tetraethyl lead (despite that LL designation), and
leaded
autogas was eventually banned by 1996 in the US for a good reason.

Surprisingly essence avec plomb (super) is still available in France,
although
it does cost more then sans plomb so it isn't purchased nearly as much. .

On the price of gasoline. In the UK 82% of the price of gasoline is made up
of taxes. Therefore when the cost of the raw material doubles in price the
impact on the final price of the gasoline autogas or avgas is much smaller
than in the US.

Added to the fact that oil is priced in dollars anyway, the deterioration in
the value of the dollar has mitigated to some extent the increase in the oil
costs.

The other fact is that TEL is made in the UK and guess what, the dollar's
decline has made that more expensive. So the cost of AVGAS in the US is
doubly hit. Whereas TEL costs in Europe have not changed.

Jay Honeck wrote:

You admit that predatory taxation has added 25% to the cost of GA in France
(which is a gross under-estimation, BTW)

On what "knowledge" is your statement based? Mine is based on calculation.

-- and in the same breath say that
it has NO impact on it?

Please be accurate. I said that is has no impact on the number of
private pilots. Each of those pilots will probably fly fewer hours per
year, though, because private pilots tend to fly on a budget.

That is the most absurd assertion I've seen in Usenet

Maybe, but it is based on a thorough knowledge of the local scene, while
your statements are based on nothing else than prejudice from thousands
of miles away. (BTW: Wasn't Blix' statement that the Iraq didn't have
WMDs the most absurd assertion, too? Sorry, couldn't resist, but I see a
pattern.)

Stefan