Avgas in France has reached $7.50/gal !

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:97A9e.4563$c24.215@attbi_s72...

Chris, it will only feel like we're subsidizing your flying, after the
way
you've been abused. Our airports are 100% supported by the (relatively
small) taxes on our fuel. (Or, rather, they WOULD be, if our
legislatures didn't continually rape the fund for all sorts of things
that
have nothing to do with aviation.)

--
Jay Honeck


Jay, this is total BS. The amount raised from the tax on avgas is $60
million annually. It doesn't even begin to pay for flight service
stations
nevermind airports or anything else. Even AOPA achknowleged this in a
recent magazine. If we were to support airports with a gas tax gas would
be
$7.80...or more...


Does the tax on Jet-A and other fees support the airlines usages?

Has anyone ever done a complete breakout of costs vs. revenue of the air
transport system at all levels?

Interestingly, I recall a few articles a few years ago the over-the-road
trucks pay roughly half of taxes and fees for the interstate and state
highways, but they cause more than 3/4ths of wear-and-tear and damage.

When someone else foots the bill, new and more efficient processes and
technologies never seem to get implemented as quickly as when we pay our own
way (like good, mature adults).


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
hlink.net...


Jay, this is total BS. The amount raised from the tax on avgas is $60
million annually. It doesn't even begin to pay for flight service
stations
nevermind airports or anything else. Even AOPA achknowleged this in a
recent magazine. If we were to support airports with a gas tax gas
would
be
$7.80...or more...


Does the tax on Jet-A and other fees support the airlines usages?

Has anyone ever done a complete breakout of costs vs. revenue of the air
transport system at all levels?

Interestingly, I recall a few articles a few years ago the over-the-road
trucks pay roughly half of taxes and fees for the interstate and state
highways, but they cause more than 3/4ths of wear-and-tear and damage.

When someone else foots the bill, new and more efficient processes and
technologies never seem to get implemented as quickly as when we pay our
own
way (like good, mature adults).



One last thing; the current FSS is, IMO, a throwback to the olden days
before long distance phones and high speed communications. Every big city
doesn't need a FSS, and especially doesn't need several. My take is it's a
jobs program for otherwise unemployable controllers ( :~) ) just like most
of the "education" system.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:97A9e.4563$c24.215@attbi_s72...

Chris, it will only feel like we're subsidizing your flying, after the
way
you've been abused. Our airports are 100% supported by the (relatively
small) taxes on our fuel. (Or, rather, they WOULD be, if our
legislatures didn't continually rape the fund for all sorts of things
that
have nothing to do with aviation.)

--
Jay Honeck


Jay, this is total BS. The amount raised from the tax on avgas is $60
million annually. It doesn't even begin to pay for flight service
stations
nevermind airports or anything else. Even AOPA achknowleged this in a
recent magazine. If we were to support airports with a gas tax gas would
be
$7.80...or more...


Does the tax on Jet-A and other fees support the airlines usages?


The passenger and fuel taxes are all mixed together. I used avgas tax and
FSS because almost all the FSS users are flying piston engine airplanes.
There really aren't any other fees that don't go to the airport owner.

Has anyone ever done a complete breakout of costs vs. revenue of the air
transport system at all levels?

If you consider that most of the system exists for the airlines, with GA as
an incremental user then the airlines are getting a pretty good deal. If
you divide the cost among all users by the number of flights then GA is
getting a good deal. People try to parse the facts to support their
position. Another way to look at it is that GA pilots and companies with
business aircraft pay income taxes and most airlines do not. The airlines
would counter that they pay wages and their employees pay taxes. It goes on
forever. One thing is clear though; piston GA is not paying its way through
fuel taxes as many believe. If the airplane burns 10GPH and flys 100hrs/yr
the fuel tax is only about $200/yr which doesn't cover much of anything.

Interestingly, I recall a few articles a few years ago the over-the-road
trucks pay roughly half of taxes and fees for the interstate and state
highways, but they cause more than 3/4ths of wear-and-tear and damage.

I recall a statistic that one max weight semi truck caused as much damage as
2300cars over the same road. This implies that trucking is indeed
subsidized. The railroads have to maintain their own tracks. The system
doesn't change because there are more truckers than railroads.

When someone else foots the bill, new and more efficient processes and
technologies never seem to get implemented as quickly as when we pay our
own
way (like good, mature adults).

Yes I would support an IFR system like in the UK. You fly without radar
separation below certain altitudes and you don't have to talk to ATC. AFAIK
there has never been a collision.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 03:53:50 GMT, Mike Rapoport wrote:

I recall a statistic that one max weight semi truck caused as much damage as
2300cars over the same road. This implies that trucking is indeed
subsidized. The railroads have to maintain their own tracks. The system
doesn't change because there are more truckers than railroads.

this is one of the main reasons we have tolls for trucks on a per mile
basis. for one to pay for the damage; we also want them to move their cargo
on trains.

#m
--
http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
link.net...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...


Does the tax on Jet-A and other fees support the airlines usages?


The passenger and fuel taxes are all mixed together. I used avgas tax and
FSS because almost all the FSS users are flying piston engine airplanes.
There really aren't any other fees that don't go to the airport owner.

Has anyone ever done a complete breakout of costs vs. revenue of the air
transport system at all levels?

If you consider that most of the system exists for the airlines, with GA
as
an incremental user then the airlines are getting a pretty good deal.

Considering the spartan facilities GA uses, compared to the regal
infrastructure the airlines require, GA is dirt cheap.

If
you divide the cost among all users by the number of flights then GA is
getting a good deal. People try to parse the facts to support their
position. Another way to look at it is that GA pilots and companies with
business aircraft pay income taxes and most airlines do not.

And GA didn't get $$$BILLIONS in handout in the wake of 9/11.

The airlines
would counter that they pay wages and their employees pay taxes. It goes
on
forever.

Cyclically.

One thing is clear though; piston GA is not paying its way through
fuel taxes as many believe. If the airplane burns 10GPH and flys
100hrs/yr
the fuel tax is only about $200/yr which doesn't cover much of anything.

Interestingly, I recall a few articles a few years ago the over-the-road
trucks pay roughly half of taxes and fees for the interstate and state
highways, but they cause more than 3/4ths of wear-and-tear and damage.

I recall a statistic that one max weight semi truck caused as much damage
as
2300cars over the same road. This implies that trucking is indeed
subsidized.

Trucks like to have stickers on their cab/trailers that "I paid $xxx in
taxes last year", but the amounts certain;y are not coincident with the
damage they cause. Never mind that many are way OVER max.

Hell, I paid $900 in Colorado property tax on my bird last year and it
certainly didn't go into the CAF.

The railroads have to maintain their own tracks. The system
doesn't change because there are more truckers than railroads.

When someone else foots the bill, new and more efficient processes and
technologies never seem to get implemented as quickly as when we pay our
own
way (like good, mature adults).

Yes I would support an IFR system like in the UK. You fly without radar
separation below certain altitudes and you don't have to talk to ATC.
AFAIK
there has never been a collision.

"Midair collisions are extremely rare. In 1999, for instance, only 18 midair
collisions occurred, of which 9 involved fatalities. A fatal midair
collision, therefore, occurred only once in every 3 million flying hours
(based on an estimated 27 million hours flown in 1999)." -- AOPA GA Fact
Sheet

Only two of the 18 (AIUI) were under ATC control. ??


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
link.net...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...


Does the tax on Jet-A and other fees support the airlines usages?


The passenger and fuel taxes are all mixed together. I used avgas tax
and
FSS because almost all the FSS users are flying piston engine airplanes.
There really aren't any other fees that don't go to the airport owner.

Has anyone ever done a complete breakout of costs vs. revenue of the
air
transport system at all levels?

If you consider that most of the system exists for the airlines, with GA
as
an incremental user then the airlines are getting a pretty good deal.

Considering the spartan facilities GA uses, compared to the regal
infrastructure the airlines require, GA is dirt cheap.


Not really if you consider that most airports exist soley for GA. The
taxes on GA don't cover the services and facilities that GA uses exclusively


If
you divide the cost among all users by the number of flights then GA is
getting a good deal. People try to parse the facts to support their
position. Another way to look at it is that GA pilots and companies with
business aircraft pay income taxes and most airlines do not.

And GA didn't get $$$BILLIONS in handout in the wake of 9/11.

The airlines
would counter that they pay wages and their employees pay taxes. It goes
on
forever.

Cyclically.

One thing is clear though; piston GA is not paying its way through
fuel taxes as many believe. If the airplane burns 10GPH and flys
100hrs/yr
the fuel tax is only about $200/yr which doesn't cover much of anything.

Interestingly, I recall a few articles a few years ago the
over-the-road
trucks pay roughly half of taxes and fees for the interstate and state
highways, but they cause more than 3/4ths of wear-and-tear and damage.

I recall a statistic that one max weight semi truck caused as much damage
as
2300cars over the same road. This implies that trucking is indeed
subsidized.

Trucks like to have stickers on their cab/trailers that "I paid $xxx in
taxes last year", but the amounts certain;y are not coincident with the
damage they cause. Never mind that many are way OVER max.

Hell, I paid $900 in Colorado property tax on my bird last year and it
certainly didn't go into the CAF.

The railroads have to maintain their own tracks. The system
doesn't change because there are more truckers than railroads.

When someone else foots the bill, new and more efficient processes and
technologies never seem to get implemented as quickly as when we pay
our
own
way (like good, mature adults).

Yes I would support an IFR system like in the UK. You fly without radar
separation below certain altitudes and you don't have to talk to ATC.
AFAIK
there has never been a collision.

"Midair collisions are extremely rare. In 1999, for instance, only 18
midair
collisions occurred, of which 9 involved fatalities. A fatal midair
collision, therefore, occurred only once in every 3 million flying hours
(based on an estimated 27 million hours flown in 1999)." -- AOPA GA Fact
Sheet

Only two of the 18 (AIUI) were under ATC control. ??



I don't think that any of them were during the enroute phase of flight.

Mike
MU-2


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
link.net...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
link.net...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...


Does the tax on Jet-A and other fees support the airlines usages?


The passenger and fuel taxes are all mixed together. I used avgas tax
and
FSS because almost all the FSS users are flying piston engine
airplanes.
There really aren't any other fees that don't go to the airport owner.

Has anyone ever done a complete breakout of costs vs. revenue of the
air
transport system at all levels?

If you consider that most of the system exists for the airlines, with
GA
as
an incremental user then the airlines are getting a pretty good deal.

Considering the spartan facilities GA uses, compared to the regal
infrastructure the airlines require, GA is dirt cheap.


Not really if you consider that most airports exist soley for GA.

I'd bet that Denver Intl (Frederico Pena's monument to himself) cost as much
as the rest of GA airports combined

The
taxes on GA don't cover the services and facilities that GA uses
exclusively

I don't think that any of them were during the enroute phase of flight.

It doesn't say.

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:55:04 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
wrote:

snip

I'd bet that Denver Intl (Frederico Pena's monument to himself) cost as much
as the rest of GA airports combined


Man, what a place! I arrived via road well before sunup to catch the
early flight home. It seemed like the drive went on for hours when I
saw a line of lights, a very long line, extending from right to left.
They were the toll gates into the parking lot. I don't know how many
gates, but I'd never seen that many. That parking lot probably has
square miles of concrete, or it sure seemed like it.

They have their own subway system and believe the signs when they tell
you to hang on. Those are to keep you from ending up in a pile at the
end of the car when it acellerates.

I've been into ORD many times but it doesn't seem near as big as DIA.

I wonder if they ever did get their multi-million dollar automated
baggage facility fully functional?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

The
taxes on GA don't cover the services and facilities that GA uses
exclusively

I don't think that any of them were during the enroute phase of flight.

It doesn't say.

In article .net, Mike Rapoport wrote:
I recall a statistic that one max weight semi truck caused as much damage as
2300cars over the same road.

IIRC, the road damage goes up at the fourth power of axle weight.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
link.net...
Yes I would support an IFR system like in the UK. You fly without radar
separation below certain altitudes and you don't have to talk to ATC.
AFAIK
there has never been a collision.

Just a guide.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/224/SRG_GA_LARS_in_SEE.pdf

There's an interesting map of air-proxes and mid-air collisions. It
surprised me that there were five mid-air collisions from 1991 to 2001 in
the south east of England. Three of them involve gliders, with one being
plane with glider. The other two happened while flying formation/formation
aeros though they were both relatively minor (no one was hurt).

Paul