Mountain flying knowledge required?

"Toño" wrote

I have always considered mountain flying to be flying *in* the mountains
and the things that concern a mountain pilot to be at or below the
peaks. Is this incorrect?

Yes. The waves extend way up past the peaks, and so do rotors.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:
"Toño" wrote


I have always considered mountain flying to be flying *in* the mountains
and the things that concern a mountain pilot to be at or below the
peaks. Is this incorrect?


Yes. The waves extend way up past the peaks, and so do rotors.

Not according to Sparky Imeson....

"...the rotor cloud will be downwind from the mountain range and extend
anywhere from the earth's surface to up to mountain-top level".

--p.63 of "Mountain Flying" by Sparky Imeson

In 15 years of mountain flying I have never encountered a rotor above a
mountain peak. Turbulence, yes...but *rotors*, no. I have encountered
waves and even flown in them. Sometimes the waves extend hundreds of
miles downwind of a range!

Waves are not at all dangerous to fly in! In fact, gliders often take
advantage of their superior lift and laminar air. I have often
paralleled a mountain range to take advantage of them.


Antonio

"Toño" wrote

Not according to Sparky Imeson....

"...the rotor cloud will be downwind from the mountain range and extend
anywhere from the earth's surface to up to mountain-top level".

--p.63 of "Mountain Flying" by Sparky Imeson
Antonio

There is some disagreement with this, and here is a clip:
Normally the rotor clouds is centered beneath the lenticular cloud. Most
often it extends anywhere from ground level to mountaintop level, but is
frequently observed up to 35,000 feet. Destructive turbulence from the rotor
rarely exists more than 2,000-3,000 feet above mountaintop level.

http://www.mountainflying.com/mountain_wave2.htm

My point is, just because you clear the ridge, there are still dangers that
can ruin your day, if the winds are right. Further down in the article,
this author talks about rotors that do not have a visible cloud.

If the wind is blowing strong, close to perpendicular to the ridge, best
wait until early the next day, and see if the winds are calmed down.

Hey, I just read, and remember. I have no idea if what everyone says is
true. I would rather be safe, than sorry. YMMV
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:
"Toño" wrote


Not according to Sparky Imeson....

"...the rotor cloud will be downwind from the mountain range and extend
anywhere from the earth's surface to up to mountain-top level".

--p.63 of "Mountain Flying" by Sparky Imeson
Antonio


There is some disagreement with this, and here is a clip:
Normally the rotor clouds is centered beneath the lenticular cloud. Most
often it extends anywhere from ground level to mountaintop level, but is
frequently observed up to 35,000 feet. Destructive turbulence from the rotor
rarely exists more than 2,000-3,000 feet above mountaintop level.

Well? Your last sentence says it..."Destructive turbulence from the
rotor rarely exists more than 2,000-3,000 feet above mountaintop level."
I see no "disagreement" about it.


My point is, just because you clear the ridge, there are still dangers that
can ruin your day,snip

I agree and never stated otherwise.

However, the OP was wondering whether he should take a "mountain flying"
course in order to make a cross-country trip at altitudes of 16-19,000
ft. My contention was that this was not *mountain flying* per se and
that he was wasting his time thinking that a mountain flying course
would in any way prepare him for the trip.

The topic is not "are there dangers at high altitudes" as some here seem
to be trying to make it; it is: "would one benefit by a mountain flying
course if one were flying at high altitudes?" At least, that's how I
read it.

Thanks for the great link!

Antonio

"Morgans" wrote in message
news


There is some disagreement with this, and here is a clip:
Normally the rotor clouds is centered beneath the lenticular cloud. Most
often it extends anywhere from ground level to mountaintop level, but is
frequently observed up to 35,000 feet. Destructive turbulence from the
rotor
rarely exists more than 2,000-3,000 feet above mountaintop level.

http://www.mountainflying.com/mountain_wave2.htm

My point is, just because you clear the ridge, there are still dangers
that
can ruin your day, if the winds are right. Further down in the article,
this author talks about rotors that do not have a visible cloud.

If the wind is blowing strong, close to perpendicular to the ridge, best
wait until early the next day, and see if the winds are calmed down.

Hey, I just read, and remember. I have no idea if what everyone says is
true. I would rather be safe, than sorry. YMMV
--
Jim in NC

Hmmmm, I've been through the rotor a few times -- while yanking and
banking on the end of a 200' length of towrope behind a tow-plane. The first
time is the worst. After that you remember to breathe and you don't suck
quite as hard on the seat cushion.
When you're headed for the primary wave developed on the east slope of
the Sierra, the rotor is unavoidable. Some folks, with more skill than I
possess, ride thermals up into the secondary wave and, when high enough
slide over to the primary.
I guess I never thought of the rotor as destructive. Maybe I shouldn't
do that again.

"Casey Wilson" N2310D @ gmail.com wrote in message
news:iqbbe.6406$Nc.4745@trnddc08...

"Morgans" wrote in message
news


There is some disagreement with this, and here is a clip:
Normally the rotor clouds is centered beneath the lenticular cloud. Most
often it extends anywhere from ground level to mountaintop level, but is
frequently observed up to 35,000 feet. Destructive turbulence from the
rotor
rarely exists more than 2,000-3,000 feet above mountaintop level.

http://www.mountainflying.com/mountain_wave2.htm

My point is, just because you clear the ridge, there are still dangers
that
can ruin your day, if the winds are right. Further down in the article,
this author talks about rotors that do not have a visible cloud.

If the wind is blowing strong, close to perpendicular to the ridge, best
wait until early the next day, and see if the winds are calmed down.

Hey, I just read, and remember. I have no idea if what everyone says is
true. I would rather be safe, than sorry. YMMV
--
Jim in NC

Hmmmm, I've been through the rotor a few times -- while yanking and
banking on the end of a 200' length of towrope behind a tow-plane. The
first time is the worst. After that you remember to breathe and you don't
suck quite as hard on the seat cushion.
When you're headed for the primary wave developed on the east slope of
the Sierra, the rotor is unavoidable. Some folks, with more skill than I
possess, ride thermals up into the secondary wave and, when high enough
slide over to the primary.
I guess I never thought of the rotor as destructive. Maybe I shouldn't
do that again.

It can be fatal but that is an extreme case with winds at ridgetop level
over 100kts. There is a chapter in Exploring the Monster describing a
flight into a rotor by Mt. Tom which is slightly north of Bishop where the
glider broke up and the pilots were subject to +16G and -20G. I have
actually "heard" rotors hissing and roaring near Genoa, NV with winds over
100kts at ridge level but calm in the valley because of a strong inversion
so it happens but only in extreme weather. It was a textbook day for a
record attempt but nobody flew out of Minden that day. In any case, gliders
are much better suited to thiese conditions than GA airplanes.

Mike
MU-2

"Casey Wilson" N2310D @ gmail.com wrote in message
news:iqbbe.6406$Nc.4745@trnddc08...

"Morgans" wrote in message
news


There is some disagreement with this, and here is a clip:
Normally the rotor clouds is centered beneath the lenticular cloud. Most
often it extends anywhere from ground level to mountaintop level, but is
frequently observed up to 35,000 feet. Destructive turbulence from the
rotor
rarely exists more than 2,000-3,000 feet above mountaintop level.

http://www.mountainflying.com/mountain_wave2.htm

My point is, just because you clear the ridge, there are still dangers
that
can ruin your day, if the winds are right. Further down in the article,
this author talks about rotors that do not have a visible cloud.

If the wind is blowing strong, close to perpendicular to the ridge, best
wait until early the next day, and see if the winds are calmed down.

Hey, I just read, and remember. I have no idea if what everyone says is
true. I would rather be safe, than sorry. YMMV
--
Jim in NC

Hmmmm, I've been through the rotor a few times -- while yanking and
banking on the end of a 200' length of towrope behind a tow-plane. The
first time is the worst. After that you remember to breathe and you don't
suck quite as hard on the seat cushion.
When you're headed for the primary wave developed on the east slope of
the Sierra, the rotor is unavoidable. Some folks, with more skill than I
possess, ride thermals up into the secondary wave and, when high enough
slide over to the primary.
I guess I never thought of the rotor as destructive. Maybe I shouldn't
do that again.


If you are talking about flying at Minden, you can often get into the
primary wave without going throught the rotor by flying west. You will be
in low level turbulence but it won't be too bad. When you are so close to
the mountains that you say: "no way I'm going any closer" and start to turn
away (about a mile) you will often start to pick up lift at 5500-6000' stay
close to the mountains and you can get over the rotor by keeping west of it.
This only works when the wind is really screaming, (80kts+ at the ridges)
and the rotor cloud is almost over the airport. I once climbed to FL290 in
the MU-2 in perhaps four minutes. The IVSI goes to 6000fpm and it was
pegged the whole time. It is also worth knowing that both instrument
approaches and the instrument departure proceedure go through the rotor when
wave conditions are strong.

Mike
MU-2

Antionio,
Sorry to throw you off, but the "Mountain Flying" book was written
35-years ago. I've learned something in that time and have observed
rotors along the Front Range between 25,000- and 30,000-feet MSL.
Usually the destructive turbulence associated with the rotor does not
extend more than a 1,000 feet or so above the ridge line.
Sparky

wrote:
Antionio,
Sorry to throw you off, but the "Mountain Flying" book was written
35-years ago. I've learned something in that time and have observed
rotors along the Front Range between 25,000- and 30,000-feet MSL.
Usually the destructive turbulence associated with the rotor does not
extend more than a 1,000 feet or so above the ridge line.
Sparky

Thanks for the update, Sparky!

What you say does not actually throw me off at all. I realize that
there can be turbulence of all sorts at high altitudes in any
direction-- including circular ( as beneath a wave or as a result of the
jet stream) . But, in your expert opinion, does the bona-fide rotor
cloud with the characteristic "sawblade" appearance ever show it's ugly
face at high altitude?

Thanks,

Antonio

Rotors do not extend much above the ridgetops. The waves themselves are
smooth until reaching the tropopause except the extreme case of breaking
waves.

Mike
MU-2


"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Toño" wrote

I have always considered mountain flying to be flying *in* the mountains
and the things that concern a mountain pilot to be at or below the
peaks. Is this incorrect?

Yes. The waves extend way up past the peaks, and so do rotors.
--
Jim in NC