C-172 down at HPN - 2 fatalities

George Patterson wrote:

Sounds completely cockeyed to me. Westchester is a controlled field, yet
the reporter states that the "pilot had no verbal contact with the air
tower"? Conditions were IMC, yet "their arrival was not scheduled"?

The reporter thinks of "scheduled" as in part 121. If someone mentioned
"general aviation" to him, he'd probably want to interview the fellow (of
obvious import due to his high rank {8^).

It's possible that there was no contact with the tower if the pilot hadn't
been handed off yet (or if he never made contact with the tower after the
hand-off). It's been a couple of years since I ILSed into HPN, so I don't
know how early/late TRACON does the hand-off.

- Andrew

In article ne.com,
Andrew Gideon wrote:

George Patterson wrote:

Sounds completely cockeyed to me. Westchester is a controlled field, yet
the reporter states that the "pilot had no verbal contact with the air
tower"? Conditions were IMC, yet "their arrival was not scheduled"?

The reporter thinks of "scheduled" as in part 121. If someone mentioned
"general aviation" to him, he'd probably want to interview the fellow (of
obvious import due to his high rank {8^).

It's possible that there was no contact with the tower if the pilot hadn't
been handed off yet (or if he never made contact with the tower after the
hand-off). It's been a couple of years since I ILSed into HPN, so I don't
know how early/late TRACON does the hand-off.

Believe me, by the time he got to his final position he would have been
handed off long ago. Normally NY App does the handoff shortly before
clearing for the approach, certainly outside the HESTER (the outer
makrker/FAF). He went down less than a half mile from the threshold.

It's worth noting that the student was NOT an instrument student. He
was still working on his private ticket. It was a pretty low day for a
student pilot to be shooting instrument approaches, in fact I have no
idea what they were doing out there that day. I can't imagine my
primary instructor allowing me out in such low weather.

In article
250420051652421759%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjunkatm ,
Tom Fleischman k
wrote:

Normally NY App does the handoff shortly before
clearing for the approach, certainly outside the HESTER (the outer
makrker/FAF).

DOH!!

That would be "after".

Tom Fleischman wrote:
In article
250420051652421759%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjunkatm ,
Tom Fleischman k
wrote:


Normally NY App does the handoff shortly before
clearing for the approach, certainly outside the HESTER (the outer
makrker/FAF).


DOH!!

That would be "after".

Oh. Disregard my earlier question. DGB

The damned ceiling couldn't have been more than 500 feet. Temp/dewpoint
spread was zero. Says something about American Flyers that it's taking a
primary student up shooting instrument approaches in low IMC .



"Tom Fleischman" k wrote in
message
news:250420051652421759%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
In article ne.com,
Andrew Gideon wrote:

George Patterson wrote:

Sounds completely cockeyed to me. Westchester is a controlled field,
yet
the reporter states that the "pilot had no verbal contact with the air
tower"? Conditions were IMC, yet "their arrival was not scheduled"?

The reporter thinks of "scheduled" as in part 121. If someone mentioned
"general aviation" to him, he'd probably want to interview the fellow
(of
obvious import due to his high rank {8^).

It's possible that there was no contact with the tower if the pilot
hadn't
been handed off yet (or if he never made contact with the tower after
the
hand-off). It's been a couple of years since I ILSed into HPN, so I
don't
know how early/late TRACON does the hand-off.

Believe me, by the time he got to his final position he would have been
handed off long ago. Normally NY App does the handoff shortly before
clearing for the approach, certainly outside the HESTER (the outer
makrker/FAF). He went down less than a half mile from the threshold.

It's worth noting that the student was NOT an instrument student. He
was still working on his private ticket. It was a pretty low day for a
student pilot to be shooting instrument approaches, in fact I have no
idea what they were doing out there that day. I can't imagine my
primary instructor allowing me out in such low weather.

A.Coleman wrote:

The damned ceiling couldn't have been more than 500 feet. Temp/dewpoint
spread was zero.Â*Â*SaysÂ*somethingÂ*aboutÂ*AmericanÂ*Flyers *thatÂ*it'sÂ*takingÂ*a
primary student up shooting instrument approaches in low IMC .

Right. Instead of training students in this weather, they should be
permitted to experience it for the first time on their own.

I've no idea of the status of the left-seater. IR and just getting
experience in real weather? Student on his first instrument training
flight? There's a huge difference between the two, of course.

I do know that my CFII and I sought out poor weather in the later parts of
my training. I've flown appoaches down to actual misseds during that time,
and I'm glad of it.

[Though the short term weather reporting does indicate a possible cell, and
that would be a little worrisome.]

- Andrew

"A.Coleman" wrote in message
. ..

Says something about American Flyers that it's taking a
primary student up shooting instrument approaches in low IMC .

As far as I am concerned, it would be just fine for a flight school to give
intro rides to prospective pilots, no less student pilots, in low IMC. The
relevant question is the experience level of the CFII, especially his
experience in low IMC. It is entirely possible for a CFII to have never
been in a cloud and/or to have never been in the right seat in IMC -- THOSE
experience factors are far more important IMHO than the experience of the
pilot in the left seat.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

I agree, but it is more meaningful to the pilot if he/she has had some
instrument training. I once gave a cross country phase check to a
(quite capable) student pilot. When we departed (near dusk) it was VFR
but when we returned 45 minutes later, the infamous Southern California
stratus had covered our home base. I had the student fly the whole
approach. I handled the radios and watched carefully. Althought it
wasn't "low IMC" it was a great experience for him- a real confidence
builder.

Lee Elson
Richard Kaplan wrote:
"A.Coleman" wrote in message
. ..

Says something about American Flyers that it's taking a
primary student up shooting instrument approaches in low IMC .

As far as I am concerned, it would be just fine for a flight school
to give
intro rides to prospective pilots, no less student pilots, in low
IMC. The
relevant question is the experience level of the CFII, especially his
experience in low IMC. It is entirely possible for a CFII to have
never
been in a cloud and/or to have never been in the right seat in IMC --
THOSE
experience factors are far more important IMHO than the experience of
the
pilot in the left seat.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Earlier thread idicated 200 and 1/8 I believe. If that's what is being
reported, a good lesson may be that, "we don't even try that, it's time
to divert"

A.Coleman wrote:
The damned ceiling couldn't have been more than 500 feet. Temp/dewpoint
spread was zero. Says something about American Flyers that it's taking a
primary student up shooting instrument approaches in low IMC .

"A.Coleman" wrote in message
. ..

Says something about American Flyers that it's taking a
primary student up shooting instrument approaches in low IMC .

As far as I am concerned, it would be just fine for a flight school to give
intro rides to prospective pilots, no less student pilots, in low IMC. The
relevant question is the experience level of the CFII, especially his
experience in low IMC. It is entirely possible for a CFII to have never
been in a cloud and/or to have never been in the right seat in IMC -- THOSE
experience factors are far more important IMHO than the experience of the
pilot in the left seat.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com