"Out of fuel, out of hope: 'Help, I'm in the water'"

"Chris" wrote in message
...

And maybe it was the fact that he was only 20 years old.


Are you saying 20 year olds are stupid?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Chris" wrote in message
...

And maybe it was the fact that he was only 20 years old.


Are you saying 20 year olds are stupid?

A flight instructor with whom I spoke about this accident claims he saw a
Discovery Channel documentary that discussed a theory that the
risk-assessment part of the human brain is not fully developed until about
25 years of age. For what that's worth...

The age of the average participant in the various X-Games sporting events
seems to support this theory.

--
Peter


















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In article , Peter R. wrote:
A flight instructor with whom I spoke about this accident claims he saw a
Discovery Channel documentary that discussed a theory that the
risk-assessment part of the human brain is not fully developed until about
25 years of age. For what that's worth...

I've got less risk averse as I've got older. I was very timid as an 18
year old. These days I'll take many more personal risks! Then again, my
Dad took up motorcycle racing in his 40s, and now races in the Isle of
Man TT (a very demanding road race). So perhaps there is something
genetic in it.

On the topic of water crossing, I cannot undertake any cross country
flights without crossing (usually around 60nm of) the Irish Sea.
However, for crossing any body of water like this, I want:

1. Fuel. Enough to cross the Irish Sea *and* turn around and get back to
whichever shore I left from plus another 45 minutes. So if Ronaldsway is
fogged in (as it's prone to do) on a return trip from the UK, I can turn
around and land somewhere like Blackpool and have some loitering time.
That is the absolute minimum fuel. Leaving, I prefer to have full tanks.

2. Lifejackets that can be worn whilst PIC. There are lifejackets made
for this purpose.

3. A life raft. The Irish Sea probably isn't as cold as Lake Michigan
due to the Gulf Stream, but it's still cold enough to be a problem
especially in the winter.

4. If it's VMC, keep an eye out for boats, ships and oil platforms. If a
ditching has to be made try and ditch as close to the vessel as
possible. (Small boats are probably the best, if they see you they are
probably the most likely to be able to alter course to pick you up)

Ditching is eminently survivable (although very unpleasant) if you're
prepared. There is a study out there that shows successful egress in the
vast (at least 90%) of ditchings. If you have life jackets and rafts,
you're likely to then last long enough for the lifeboat or helicopter
to arrive. Crossing water is NOT nuts, you just have to first not be in
denial that there is a possibility of Bad Stuff Happening and a need to
ditch, and then be prepared for that eventuality. Virtually every pilot
here does it routinely.

It's interesting to note that the last few planes that have gone down
whilst making the crossing from the Isle of Man have been light twins -
one due to fuel exhaustion (the other two in the last few years were one
due to spatial disorientation in IMC and one due to pilot
incapacitation).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...

On the topic of water crossing, I cannot undertake any cross country
flights without crossing (usually around 60nm of) the Irish Sea.
However, for crossing any body of water like this, I want:

1. Fuel. Enough to cross the Irish Sea *and* turn around and get back to
whichever shore I left from plus another 45 minutes. So if Ronaldsway is
fogged in (as it's prone to do) on a return trip from the UK, I can turn
around and land somewhere like Blackpool and have some loitering time.
That is the absolute minimum fuel. Leaving, I prefer to have full tanks.

2. Lifejackets that can be worn whilst PIC. There are lifejackets made
for this purpose.

3. A life raft. The Irish Sea probably isn't as cold as Lake Michigan
due to the Gulf Stream, but it's still cold enough to be a problem
especially in the winter.

4. If it's VMC, keep an eye out for boats, ships and oil platforms. If a
ditching has to be made try and ditch as close to the vessel as
possible. (Small boats are probably the best, if they see you they are
probably the most likely to be able to alter course to pick you up)

Ditching is eminently survivable (although very unpleasant) if you're
prepared. There is a study out there that shows successful egress in the
vast (at least 90%) of ditchings. If you have life jackets and rafts,
you're likely to then last long enough for the lifeboat or helicopter
to arrive. Crossing water is NOT nuts, you just have to first not be in
denial that there is a possibility of Bad Stuff Happening and a need to
ditch, and then be prepared for that eventuality. Virtually every pilot
here does it routinely.

It's interesting to note that the last few planes that have gone down
whilst making the crossing from the Isle of Man have been light twins -
one due to fuel exhaustion (the other two in the last few years were one
due to spatial disorientation in IMC and one due to pilot
incapacitation).


If you're operating to or from an island crossing water is unavoidable. But
the pilot in this recent episode could have avoided overwater flight
entirely. The distance between Hamilton and Watertown is 580 miles via
direct. A course north of Lake Erie and south of Lake Michigan would add
about 70 miles, a course south of both lakes would add about 80 miles.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

The distance between Hamilton and Watertown is 580 miles via
direct. A course north of Lake Erie and south of Lake Michigan would add
about 70 miles, a course south of both lakes would add about 80 miles.

In addition to the extra 80nm, the last leg northwest direct to Watertown
would require flying over or through Chicago O'Hare's class B airspace.

Could be intimidating for some.

--
Peter


















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"Peter R." wrote in message
...

In addition to the extra 80nm, the last leg northwest direct to Watertown
would require flying over or through Chicago O'Hare's class B airspace.


Or under it, I believe the lowest shelf along the shoreline is 3000 MSL.



Could be intimidating for some.


But far less intimidating than a dip in the lake.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

A course north of Lake Erie and south of Lake Michigan would add
about 70 miles, a course south of both lakes would add about 80 miles.

Weather considerations perhaps? I remember crossing the lake twice because the
area around Chicago was IMC with T-storms for a week.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:qeBce.119$3h7.117@trndny05...

Weather considerations perhaps? I remember crossing the lake twice because
the area around Chicago was IMC with T-storms for a week.


I don't think so. We had high winds in the region over the weekend but no
significant weather.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"Chris" wrote in message
...

And maybe it was the fact that he was only 20 years old.


Are you saying 20 year olds are stupid?

Less experienced. A 43 year old pilot with 3 years time as a pilot might
behave differently than a 20 year old. perhaps more assertive, able and
PREPARED to 'fess up to a problem.

The thing is that it is easy to generalise. From the various bits I have
read, this young man seemed a nice boy and looked to want to please people.

Maybe that attitude (desperately desired in many young people today) made
him call for help too late.

Its all speculation, the poor planning was one issue, poor execution of his
way out of the problem was the other.

"Chris" wrote in message
...

Its all speculation, the poor planning was one issue, poor execution of
his way out of the problem was the other.

Poor planning is a certainty, there was no proper execution out of this
problem.