"Out of fuel, out of hope: 'Help, I'm in the water'"

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
.com...
Matt Barrow wrote:
Here's just a few:
1) Poor fuel planning and continuing on with low fuel from Michigan
side.
2) Water crossing
3) No floatation devices



If he had pants on, he had floatation gear. Get someone to show you how
to knot
the legs, then inflate the pants by swinging it over your head from above
and
behind you to in front of you in one swift movement. The trapped air will
then
hold you up for quite a while like water wings.... and they can always be
reinflated ad nauseum.

His biggest risk was hypothermia. If he'd only had a light.... I always
carry
a waterproof light with me in my car and when I fly. Always.

He was an expert swimmer and it took the search boat how long to reach the
area? In 32 degree water he would have lasted only 30 minutes at best; they
would have found his corpse. As he was very lean, he might have had even
less time.

Has anyone ever seen a small inflatable raft (2-4 person) that would be
small enough to carry onboard an aircraft? I figure it would keep you out of
the water.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:01:08 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
wrote in
::

In 32 degree water he would have lasted only 30 minutes at best

If the water had been 32 degrees F (instead of 40), he could have
walked to shore. :-)

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

If the water had been 32 degrees F (instead of 40), he could have
walked to shore. :-)


If the water had been 32 degrees F instead of 40 it would have been 8
degrees colder, but it still would have been liquid.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:04:28 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
. net::


If the water had been 32 degrees F instead of 40 it would have been 8
degrees colder, but it still would have been liquid.

I thought it was fresh water, not salty. Or are you referring to the
agitation from wind keeping it liquid?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

I thought it was fresh water, not salty.


It is. Were you under the impression that fresh water exists only as a
solid at 32F?



Or are you referring to the agitation from wind keeping it liquid?


That's part of it. Another part of it is the way ice forms on lakes and how
much ice it takes to support how much weight.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:38:01 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
et::


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

I thought it was fresh water, not salty.


It is. Were you under the impression that fresh water exists only as a
solid at 32F?


I am aware that super cooled water can remain in the liquid state a
few degrees below 32F.


Or are you referring to the agitation from wind keeping it liquid?


That's part of it. Another part of it is the way ice forms on lakes and how
much ice it takes to support how much weight.


Right. My comment was more of a tongue-in-cheek correction than a
lesson in physics. But I do appreciate your firsthand information.


What really puzzles me is your complete lack of comment on my views of
Ninja-1's decisions in the November 16, 2000 F-16/Cessna 172 MAC. Did
someone contact you with a warning about participating in that
discussion? Or is your reticence a result of your government
employment or something else?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Right. My comment was more of a tongue-in-cheek correction than a
lesson in physics. But I do appreciate your firsthand information.


I don't think you're in a position to be teaching any physics!



What really puzzles me is your complete lack of comment on my views of
Ninja-1's decisions in the November 16, 2000 F-16/Cessna 172 MAC. Did
someone contact you with a warning about participating in that
discussion? Or is your reticence a result of your government
employment or something else?


I thought I made my position on that episode quite clear.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote

If the water had been 32 degrees F instead of 40 it would have been 8
degrees colder, but it still would have been liquid.

It is arguing nits, but I'll play the game you started.

If the water of the lake was all indeed at 32 degrees, it would all be a
giant ice cube. If it were all at 32.1 degrees, it would all be liquid.
The wave action has nothing to do with it.

In reality, lakes do not freeze because of wave action, because it keeps the
deeper warmer water mixed with the water at the surface that is trying to
get frozen because of the colder air. When the water just below the surface
is cold enough that it can't keep the water at the surface warm enough, it
starts to freeze.

Water has the unusual property of getting less dense, when it gets to almost
freezing. That is the only thing that keeps lakes from freezing solid, from
the bottom up. Most things get more dense as they get colder, so the cold
sinks to the bottom of the container, but not water.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

It is arguing nits, but I'll play the game you started.

If the water of the lake was all indeed at 32 degrees, it would all be a
giant ice cube. If it were all at 32.1 degrees, it would all be liquid.
The wave action has nothing to do with it.


So in other words, the physical state of water is a function of temperature
alone?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

It is arguing nits, but I'll play the game you started.

If the water of the lake was all indeed at 32 degrees, it would all be a
giant ice cube. If it were all at 32.1 degrees, it would all be liquid.
The wave action has nothing to do with it.


So in other words, the physical state of water is a function of
temperature
alone?

Zactly. Waves stir the water, and bring up the warmer water to the surface,
if there is warm enough water down there to keep it from freezing. There is
ultimate proof that waves are not enough, because some winters, the Great
Lakes still freeze over. I'll bet there were waves, when it started to
freeze. The air was cold enough to get the surface temperature down to
32.0, or lower. Period.

Same principle with some boats at marinas that stay in the water all winter.
They put an air bubble pump with the hose under the boat, to keep the water
circulating. It works pretty well.
--
Jim in NC