When to acknowledge ATC

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

If you're working in any sort of Class C or D airspace, his
response to you is in fact clearance into that airspace.

No clearance is required.

So if he
responds, you can fly through unless ATC tells you 'remain outside
Class x Airspace'. Then you must read back something.

The last sentence makes no sense whatsoever. If I call and he answers,
that's two-way communciation and that's all that's required.

Class B airspace
requires ATC to tell you that you are cleared into it. So if ATC tells
you 'radar contact location, altimeter xx.xx', you're cleared through
that space where he's controlling, establishes 2-way comms, in which
you need to acknowledge that he hears you whether it's a vector he's
given you, or just replying with your callsign, that is all that's
needed. You can reply back with the alt. setting, but it isn't really
necessary.

RADAR CONTACT is not required. Altimeter setting is not required.
Readback is not required. You know he hears you because he responded
to your radio call with your call sign. I'm having a hard time
following your argument.

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Ron Natalie wrote:
A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

If you're working in any sort of Class C or D airspace, his
response to you is in fact clearance into that airspace.

No clearance is required.

For Class C airspace, 2-way communication is the clearance into
that airspace. No, ATC doesn't ahve to 'clear' you into it, but the
communication is the clearance as is.

So if he
responds, you can fly through unless ATC tells you 'remain outside
Class x Airspace'. Then you must read back something.

The last sentence makes no sense whatsoever. If I call and he answers,
that's two-way communciation and that's all that's required.

If ATC tells you to remain outside a certain class airspace,
you must read that back and remain outside that airspace until he
clears you into it. Yes, it establishes communication, and normally
that is all that's needed. but ATC's actual notification of 'remain
outside Class x airspace' (where x is B, or C) overrides your clearance
into that airspace. You will need to remain outside that airspace until
told otherwise.

Class B airspace
requires ATC to tell you that you are cleared into it. So if ATC tells
you 'radar contact location, altimeter xx.xx', you're cleared through
that space where he's controlling, establishes 2-way comms, in which
you need to acknowledge that he hears you whether it's a vector he's
given you, or just replying with your callsign, that is all that's
needed. You can reply back with the alt. setting, but it isn't really
necessary.

RADAR CONTACT is not required. Altimeter setting is not required.
Readback is not required. You know he hears you because he responded
to your radio call with your call sign. I'm having a hard time
following your argument.

Actually, for Class B, it does. AIM 3-2-3.d.2 and 3-2-3.e back that:

3-2-3.e: ATC Clearances and Separation. An ATC clearance is
required to enter and operate within Class B airspace. VFR
pilots are provided sequencing and separation from other
aircraft while operating within Class B airspace.

For Class C, AIM 3-2-4.3 states that 2-way comms must be
established, and that is the clearance into/through Class C. But, if
ATC tells you to remain outside of it, you *MUST* remain outside of it
until told otherwise. Plus, a readback of that would be required.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
m...

If ATC tells you to remain outside a certain class airspace,
you must read that back and remain outside that airspace until he
clears you into it.


If ATC tells you to remain outside you have to remain outside, whay
requires you to read it back?



RADAR CONTACT is not required. Altimeter setting is not required.
Readback is not required. You know he hears you because he responded
to your radio call with your call sign. I'm having a hard time
following your argument.


Actually, for Class B, it does. AIM 3-2-3.d.2 and 3-2-3.e back that:

3-2-3.e: ATC Clearances and Separation. An ATC clearance is
required to enter and operate within Class B airspace. VFR
pilots are provided sequencing and separation from other
aircraft while operating within Class B airspace.

For Class C, AIM 3-2-4.3 states that 2-way comms must be
established, and that is the clearance into/through Class C. But, if
ATC tells you to remain outside of it, you *MUST* remain outside of it
until told otherwise. Plus, a readback of that would be required.


Where's the requirement for radar contact? Where's the requirement for a
readback?

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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
m...

If ATC tells you to remain outside a certain class airspace,
you must read that back and remain outside that airspace until he
clears you into it.


If ATC tells you to remain outside you have to remain outside, whay
requires you to read it back?

Because if you don't read it back, they have no way to know
that you have acknowledged their call to you. Would you want ATC to
keep repeating the same call to you, adding more radio congestion to a
frequency they are already busy on? If they're trying to provide
separation that your jaunt through their airspace could jeopardize,
they're bloody well are goign to look for hearing a readback from you
on it, and make sure that you are still outside their airspace.


RADAR CONTACT is not required. Altimeter setting is not required.
Readback is not required. You know he hears you because he responded
to your radio call with your call sign. I'm having a hard time
following your argument.


Actually, for Class B, it does. AIM 3-2-3.d.2 and 3-2-3.e back that:

3-2-3.e: ATC Clearances and Separation. An ATC clearance is
required to enter and operate within Class B airspace. VFR
pilots are provided sequencing and separation from other
aircraft while operating within Class B airspace.

For Class C, AIM 3-2-4.3 states that 2-way comms must be
established, and that is the clearance into/through Class C. But, if
ATC tells you to remain outside of it, you *MUST* remain outside of it
until told otherwise. Plus, a readback of that would be required.


Where's the requirement for radar contact? Where's the requirement for a
readback?

For class C, they will always tell you 'radar contact
location, say altitude'. Class B, they'll tell you 'radar contact
location, cleared through/into xxx Class B airspace' along with an
altimeter setting for the major airport in their area. That is a
requirement for ATC to give you when entering Class B or C airspace.
See the 7110.65, sections 5-3-1 through 5-3-6. There's the requirement.
If they tell you to remain outside a given airspace, you had best
readback that you are remaining outside that airspace. 7-9-2 gives
leeway for the readback.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
...

Because if you don't read it back, they have no way to know
that you have acknowledged their call to you.


They know I've acknowledged their call when I respond with "Roger."



Would you want ATC to
keep repeating the same call to you, adding more radio congestion to a
frequency they are already busy on?


Why would they repeat a call that I've acknowledged?



If they're trying to provide
separation that your jaunt through their airspace could jeopardize,
they're bloody well are goign to look for hearing a readback from you
on it, and make sure that you are still outside their airspace.


No they're not. All they want is acknowledgement. Why do you want to
increase frequency congestion with unnecessary readbacks? Do you understand
the difference between acknowledgement and a readback?



For class C, they will always tell you 'radar contact
location, say altitude'. Class B, they'll tell you 'radar contact
location, cleared through/into xxx Class B airspace' along with an
altimeter setting for the major airport in their area. That is a
requirement for ATC to give you when entering Class B or C airspace.
See the 7110.65, sections 5-3-1 through 5-3-6. There's the requirement.
If they tell you to remain outside a given airspace, you had best
readback that you are remaining outside that airspace. 7-9-2 gives
leeway for the readback.


The controller is required to inform you that you're in radar contact once
radar contact has been established, but there's no requirement to establish
radar contact prior to entry in Class B or Class C airspace.

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

If ATC tells you to remain outside you have to remain outside, whay
requires you to read it back?


Because if you don't read it back, they have no way to know
that you have acknowledged their call to you.

Believe me, if ATC gives me an instruction and unless I respond to
the contrary they assume that I've heard and will comply. The sole
exception to this is runway hold-short/crossing restrictions.


Where's the requirement for radar contact? Where's the requirement for a
readback?


For class C, they will always tell you 'radar contact
location, say altitude'

No they won't. Not in any stretch. They'll only tell you radar
contact if you are indeed in radar contact. This usually happens
after a transponder code is issued etc.... None of this has anything
to do with your operating in class C airspace.

Class B, they'll tell you 'radar contact
location, cleared through/into xxx Class B airspace' along with an
altimeter setting for the major airport in their area.

Again, RADAR CONTACT is a different concept from either the clearance
or the altimeter setting. The altimeter setting will be that of what
they are using (which may or may not be associated with an airport).

That is a
requirement for ATC to give you when entering Class B or C airspace.
See the 7110.65, sections 5-3-1 through 5-3-6. There's the requirement.
If they tell you to remain outside a given airspace, you had best
readback that you are remaining outside that airspace. 7-9-2 gives
leeway for the readback.

No, those sections don't have anything to do with entering airspace.
This is again a fundamental issue you seem to fail to want to
understand. Radar service is a service. The airspace indicates
where you might expect to find it, but the authorization to operate
in any given airspace is NOT dependent on RADAR SERVICES being offered.
I've operated out of the primary airport of a CLASS B airspace with
NO RADAR SERVICE POSSIBLE (my transponder was out and their primary
radar was out at the same time).

"Ron Natalie"
A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

If ATC tells you to remain outside you have to remain outside, whay
requires you to read it back?

Because if you don't read it back, they have no way to know
that you have acknowledged their call to you.

Believe me, if ATC gives me an instruction and unless I respond to
the contrary they assume that I've heard and will comply. The sole
exception to this is runway hold-short/crossing restrictions.

I assume you mean that you only acknowledge the transmission. Or are you
saying that an instruction to change heading, climb, descend etc. won't
provoke a followup response of you don't respond? Traffic alerts? I hear
ATC say the call sign and their facility name all the time to pilots who
don't respond to transmissions quire frequently.


Where's the requirement for radar contact? Where's the requirement for a
readback?

Class B, they'll tell you 'radar contact
location, cleared through/into xxx Class B airspace' along with an
altimeter setting for the major airport in their area.

Again, RADAR CONTACT is a different concept from either the clearance
or the altimeter setting. The altimeter setting will be that of what
they are using (which may or may not be associated with an airport).

Of course. What's the "major airport" in NYC airspace?

That is a
requirement for ATC to give you when entering Class B or C airspace.
See the 7110.65, sections 5-3-1 through 5-3-6. There's the requirement.
If they tell you to remain outside a given airspace, you had best
readback that you are remaining outside that airspace. 7-9-2 gives
leeway for the readback.

No, those sections don't have anything to do with entering airspace.
This is again a fundamental issue you seem to fail to want to understand.
Radar service is a service. The airspace indicates
where you might expect to find it, but the authorization to operate
in any given airspace is NOT dependent on RADAR SERVICES being offered.
I've operated out of the primary airport of a CLASS B airspace with
NO RADAR SERVICE POSSIBLE (my transponder was out and their primary radar
was out at the same time).

Correct, unless otherwise indicated. Some control zones require Mode C.

moo

"Happy Dog" wrote in message
. ..

Correct, unless otherwise indicated. Some control zones require Mode C.


We don't have control zones in the US, haven't had them for almost twelve
years now. When we did have them none of them required Mode C.

but ATC's actual notification of 'remain
outside Class x airspace' (where x is B, or C) overrides your clearance
into that airspace. You will need to remain outside that airspace until
told otherwise.

Wouldn't it also apply to Class D airspace?

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

wrote:
but ATC's actual notification of 'remain
outside Class x airspace' (where x is B, or C) overrides your clearance
into that airspace. You will need to remain outside that airspace until
told otherwise.


Wouldn't it also apply to Class D airspace?

Wouldn't it also apply to any airspace. If ATC tells me to stay clear
of the town of Pinkneyville, I'm inclined to oblige (though I may ask
them later when I'm on the ground).