When to acknowledge ATC

A Lieberman wrote:

You must hear the words cleared through Bravo on a VFR flight.

New York ATC disagrees with you.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

On Sat, 07 May 2005 02:02:40 GMT, George Patterson wrote:

A Lieberman wrote:

You must hear the words cleared through Bravo on a VFR flight.

New York ATC disagrees with you.

New York doesn't disagree with me.

I would suspect they disagree with
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0709.html which is the controlling
factor of VFR flight into Bravo airspace.

Since I am quoting the regulations, I'd suspect that your New York ATC
folks may want to take a look at the above ATC chapter.

Climbing instructions you received is clearly not a clearance into Bravo
airspace. You absolutely must hear the words Cleared into Bravo. It's
required that ATC clears you AND you are required to read back this
clearance.

FYI. This is one of the benefits of IFR flights. All airspace is
transparent, and you are cleared into Bravo once you receive your
clearance.

Lets put it another way. If my ticket is on the line, you can bet I will
be hearing those magic words before entering Bravo on a VFR flight.

But then again, if I am going near Bravo airspace, I will be filing IFR
anyway, so that I don't have to worry about it.

Allen

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

A Lieberman wrote:
On Sat, 07 May 2005 02:02:40 GMT, George Patterson wrote:

Since I am quoting the regulations, I'd suspect that your New York ATC
folks may want to take a look at the above ATC chapter.

Climbing instructions you received is clearly not a clearance into Bravo
airspace. You absolutely must hear the words Cleared into Bravo. It's
required that ATC clears you AND you are required to read back this
clearance.

Thank you. This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get at all
along in this thread. You *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo
Airspace' to be allowed to enter Bravo airspace. That is your clearance
into it. Even the FARs state it:

Sec. 91.131 - Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B
airspace area except in compliance with ?91.129 and the following
rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility
having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that
area.

Some people just fail to understand that.

Even more than that, if they tell you to remain outside of
Bravo airspace, or any airspace, and give you a reason, pilots are
requested to read that back. ATC is going to expect a readback. If not,
they will repeat it. If no readback is given, they aren't going to
*ASSUME* anything. They aren't going to think 'oh, he heard it, let me
worry about separating my aircraft flying into JFK, LAS', or any major
field, they are going to get that readback from you, or send up the
F18s to escort you down/shoot you down, depending on how grave the
situation is.

Class C, on the other hand, requires 2-way comunication. When
that is established, unless told otherwise, you have clearance through
Class C airspace. If ATC tells you to not enter it, for whatever
reason, you don't enter it. In short, once again, if the 2-way
communication is established between pilot and ATC, the clearance
into/through Class C airspace is implied, and pilots may fly through.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFCfaenyBkZmuMZ8L8RAo8mAJ0YD2GknK74PvdX7Cm/K8rJKChdewCfabzG
jEXlfKI0s5Qsa7EN0TXr5I0=
=g9hJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Sun, 08 May 2005 05:46:16 GMT, A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

Class C, on the other hand, requires 2-way comunication. When
that is established, unless told otherwise, you have clearance through
Class C airspace. If ATC tells you to not enter it, for whatever
reason, you don't enter it. In short, once again, if the 2-way
communication is established between pilot and ATC, the clearance
into/through Class C airspace is implied, and pilots may fly through.

Brad,

There is no such thing as "implied clearance" through class C as you state
above. Please see http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0708.html. Note
7-8-4.

Clearances MUST be read back. When you contact ATC in Charlie airspace,
you do not have to read back your "permission to enter" Charlie airspace.

Typical transmission would be:

ME Jackson Approach (JAN) Sundowner 1234L out of Madison, climbing through
500, headed to Covington LA. (Note the three W's).

JAN Sundowner 1234L, squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

ME 34L squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

Note, at this point, I have been given PERMISSION to enter Charlie
airspace.

I did not have to read back the "permission" where as Class Bravo, I must
not only hear the magic words cleared into Bravo, I MUST read back that
clearance.

You will NEVER hear the words, cleared into Charlie.

Hope this clears it up for you.

Allen

A Lieberman wrote:


Clearances MUST be read back.

No, they do not have to be.

A Lieberman wrote:
On Sun, 08 May 2005 05:46:16 GMT, A Guy Called Tyketto wrote

Clearances MUST be read back.

Nonsense. The only requirement for a readback is runway hold-short
and crossing instructions (technically even then it's not on the pilot
to give the readback, but ATC in soliciting one).

When you contact ATC in Charlie airspace,
you do not have to read back your "permission to enter" Charlie airspace.

You

Typical transmission would be:

ME Jackson Approach (JAN) Sundowner 1234L out of Madison, climbing through
500, headed to Covington LA. (Note the three W's).

JAN Sundowner 1234L, squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

ME 34L squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

Note, at this point, I have been given PERMISSION to enter Charlie
airspace.

Nope, you had permission after the first exchange (where called you back
with your identifier)..

I did not have to read back the "permission" where as Class Bravo, I must
not only hear the magic words cleared into Bravo, I MUST read back that
clearance.

You're not required to readback in either case.


You will NEVER hear the words, cleared into Charlie.

True.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ron Natalie wrote:

Nope, you had permission after the first exchange (where called you back
with your identifier)..

Has 2-way communication been established? If ATC does not
respond, you MAY NOT ENTER THEIR AIRSPACE.

Same happens with IFR traffic. If a Minneapolis Center tries to
hand off a flight to Denver Center, and Denver Center doesn't accept
the handoff, does the flight have permission to enter Denver's
Airspace? Absolutely not. The same applies here. If ATC does not
respond, you don't enter their space.

I did not have to read back the "permission" where as Class Bravo, I must
not only hear the magic words cleared into Bravo, I MUST read back that
clearance.

You're not required to readback in either case.

********. You must. But go on and believe what you believe.
I've posted references to documentation stating opposite your case, for
both ATC and pilots. If you want to go on flying like an idiot, I hope
I'm not controlling you (and as I'm more than likely getting the call
to start at NCT in Sacramento (well what do ya know, Class C!)), you'll
resent me, because if I ask you to remain outside of Class C for a
reason, I'm expecting that readback.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFCfnqyyBkZmuMZ8L8RAnYVAKC4DAMFlS49FfnaUOiRX5 4jDuMV5wCggkAm
aXxVWJg7LRxi9NRB1w57g7M=
=IX9U
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
. ..

Has 2-way communication been established?


Yes.



If ATC does not
respond, you MAY NOT ENTER THEIR AIRSPACE.


ATC had responded.



********. You must.


You keep saying that but you offer no supporting documentation. Please
provide some.



But go on and believe what you believe.
I've posted references to documentation stating opposite your case, for
both ATC and pilots.


There is nothing in any of the documentation you provided that supports your
position.



If you want to go on flying like an idiot, I hope
I'm not controlling you (and as I'm more than likely getting the call
to start at NCT in Sacramento (well what do ya know, Class C!)), you'll
resent me, because if I ask you to remain outside of Class C for a
reason, I'm expecting that readback.


What are you going to do if you don't get that readback?

If you don't change your attitude you'll not be able to learn the procedures
and won't check out, so it'll never be an issue.

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:



Nope, you had permission after the first exchange (where called you back
with your identifier)..


Has 2-way communication been established?

Yes.


If ATC does not
respond, you MAY NOT ENTER THEIR AIRSPACE.

Right.



Same happens with IFR traffic. If a Minneapolis Center tries to
hand off a flight to Denver Center, and Denver Center doesn't accept
the handoff, does the flight have permission to enter Denver's
Airspace? Absolutely not.

Wrong, it most certainly does. If a handoff is not completed for any
reason that is an ATC error. You have no way of knowing where the
airspace boundaries are.


The same applies here. If ATC does not
respond, you don't enter their space.

Right.




********. You must. But go on and believe what you believe.
I've posted references to documentation stating opposite your case, for
both ATC and pilots.

You've done no such thing. It doesn't exist.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

A Lieberman wrote:
On Sun, 08 May 2005 05:46:16 GMT, A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

Class C, on the other hand, requires 2-way comunication. When
that is established, unless told otherwise, you have clearance through
Class C airspace. If ATC tells you to not enter it, for whatever
reason, you don't enter it. In short, once again, if the 2-way
communication is established between pilot and ATC, the clearance
into/through Class C airspace is implied, and pilots may fly through.

Brad,

There is no such thing as "implied clearance" through class C as you state
above. Please see http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0708.html. Note
7-8-4.

Clearances MUST be read back. When you contact ATC in Charlie airspace,
you do not have to read back your "permission to enter" Charlie airspace.

Typical transmission would be:

ME Jackson Approach (JAN) Sundowner 1234L out of Madison, climbing through
500, headed to Covington LA. (Note the three W's).

JAN Sundowner 1234L, squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

ME 34L squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

Note, at this point, I have been given PERMISSION to enter Charlie
airspace.

Exactly what I've been saying. I never said you had to readback
a clearance INTO Class C, but that if a controller tells you for
whatever reason to remain OUTSIDE of Class C, that should be read back.

I did not have to read back the "permission" where as Class Bravo, I must
not only hear the magic words cleared into Bravo, I MUST read back that
clearance.

You will NEVER hear the words, cleared into Charlie.

Hope this clears it up for you.

I agree, but I never said you'd hear 'cleared into class C'.
Just that if they tell you to remain outside of it, that should be read
back, and sometime along the way, ATC should be able to either a) tell
you when you will be able to transition it, or b) work you around their
airspace, either via different suggested routing (note, not giving vectors),
different altitudes (possibly dropping you into class D, should that
area exist near/around there), or handing off to another controller who
can get you back on your course.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFCfne0yBkZmuMZ8L8RAroKAKCVMpk9XGdMTMtyopuN1u yEQAFWbgCfXIzU
PuwKA1FQsC7v7TL0o74/ZSY=
=39PT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----