When to acknowledge ATC

"Larry Dighera"
On Sun, 08 May 2005 02:32:08 GMT, George Patterson
wrote in ISefe.3205$EC6.1616@trndny06:

I have a personal dislike of flight following, so I don't take
advantage of this service.

The thought of ATC's intrusion into the reverie of our aerial
operations is displeasing. But anyone who fails to avail themselves
of Radar Traffic Advisory Service in the Los Angeles basin just
doesn't appreciate the magnitude of aerial congestion in the vicinity.

The first time you see an in-cockpit traffic display, it's pretty sobering.
It's not as lonely out there as it appears!

moo

On Sun, 08 May 2005 05:46:16 GMT, A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

Class C, on the other hand, requires 2-way comunication. When
that is established, unless told otherwise, you have clearance through
Class C airspace. If ATC tells you to not enter it, for whatever
reason, you don't enter it. In short, once again, if the 2-way
communication is established between pilot and ATC, the clearance
into/through Class C airspace is implied, and pilots may fly through.

Brad,

There is no such thing as "implied clearance" through class C as you state
above. Please see http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0708.html. Note
7-8-4.

Clearances MUST be read back. When you contact ATC in Charlie airspace,
you do not have to read back your "permission to enter" Charlie airspace.

Typical transmission would be:

ME Jackson Approach (JAN) Sundowner 1234L out of Madison, climbing through
500, headed to Covington LA. (Note the three W's).

JAN Sundowner 1234L, squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

ME 34L squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

Note, at this point, I have been given PERMISSION to enter Charlie
airspace.

I did not have to read back the "permission" where as Class Bravo, I must
not only hear the magic words cleared into Bravo, I MUST read back that
clearance.

You will NEVER hear the words, cleared into Charlie.

Hope this clears it up for you.

Allen

On Sun, 8 May 2005 11:27:10 -0400, "Happy Dog"
wrote in ::

It's not as lonely out there as it appears!

Right. The Big Sky Theory belongs right up there with the Tooth
Fairy, Easter Bunny, and other childish notions. Just because you
can't see 'em, doesn't mean they're not there.

A Lieberman wrote:


Clearances MUST be read back.

No, they do not have to be.

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

I often listen to the tower at Pease tradeport (and National Guard
base) across the bay. Professional pilots regularly thank the tower,
and routinely say "G'day" upon departing the Delta airspace.

If I am flying through the airspace low and slow for a tour of Great
Bay, I call upon leaving the Class D to give my position and altitude
and to say "Thank you Pease!"

Perhaps things are more formal in Charlie airspace; I don't know.


They're not.

A Lieberman wrote:
On Sun, 08 May 2005 05:46:16 GMT, A Guy Called Tyketto wrote

Clearances MUST be read back.

Nonsense. The only requirement for a readback is runway hold-short
and crossing instructions (technically even then it's not on the pilot
to give the readback, but ATC in soliciting one).

When you contact ATC in Charlie airspace,
you do not have to read back your "permission to enter" Charlie airspace.

You

Typical transmission would be:

ME Jackson Approach (JAN) Sundowner 1234L out of Madison, climbing through
500, headed to Covington LA. (Note the three W's).

JAN Sundowner 1234L, squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

ME 34L squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

Note, at this point, I have been given PERMISSION to enter Charlie
airspace.

Nope, you had permission after the first exchange (where called you back
with your identifier)..

I did not have to read back the "permission" where as Class Bravo, I must
not only hear the magic words cleared into Bravo, I MUST read back that
clearance.

You're not required to readback in either case.


You will NEVER hear the words, cleared into Charlie.

True.

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

You absolutely must hear the words Cleared into Bravo.


You have to have a clearance to enter Class B airspace, but it doesn't have
to take the form "Cleared into Bravo". An IFR clearance will suffice as
well as a clearance for a practice approach while VFR.



It's required that ATC clears you AND you are required to read back this
clearance.


Please cite the FAR that requires that clearance to be read back.

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
m...

Thank you. This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get at all
along in this thread. You *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo
Airspace' to be allowed to enter Bravo airspace. That is your clearance
into it. Even the FARs state it:

Sec. 91.131 - Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B
airspace area except in compliance with ?91.129 and the following
rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility
having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that
area.

Some people just fail to understand that.


The regulation says the operator must receive an ATC clearance, it does not
state he *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace' to be allowed to
enter Bravo airspace.



Even more than that, if they tell you to remain outside of
Bravo airspace, or any airspace, and give you a reason, pilots are
requested to read that back.


Previously you said it MUST be read back, now you say it's a REQUEST. What
caused you to change your mind? Where does ATC make this request known to
pilots?



ATC is going to expect a readback.


What makes you think that?



If not, they will repeat it.


What makes you think that?



If no readback is given, they aren't going to *ASSUME* anything.


If there's no response they're going to assume the message was not received
and repeat it. If the message is acknowledged but not read back they're
going to conclude the message was received and understood by the pilot and
that particular little matter is then closed. If the message is read back
they're going to conclude the message was received and understood by the
pilot and that particular little matter is then closed.



They aren't going to think 'oh, he heard it, let me
worry about separating my aircraft flying into JFK, LAS', or any major
field, they are going to get that readback from you, or send up the
F18s to escort you down/shoot you down, depending on how grave the
situation is.


What makes you think you know what ATC thinks?



Class C, on the other hand, requires 2-way comunication. When
that is established, unless told otherwise, you have clearance through
Class C airspace. If ATC tells you to not enter it, for whatever
reason, you don't enter it. In short, once again, if the 2-way
communication is established between pilot and ATC, the clearance
into/through Class C airspace is implied, and pilots may fly through.


So it no longer requires radar contact prior to entry?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Mr. Dog does make his location reasonably known. If you look at the
'From' header of his articles:

From: "Happy Dog"

You'll note the domain of his e-mail address is: sympatico.ca

You're probably aware that '.ca' domain names indicate their location
to be Canada.


His location does not necessarily mean he's speaking about Canadian
procedures. Many Canadian pilots operate in the US regularly. He entered a
discussion where US procedures were being discussed and spoke of Canadian
procedures without identifying his comments as such. Bad form.

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A Lieberman wrote:
On Sun, 08 May 2005 05:46:16 GMT, A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

Class C, on the other hand, requires 2-way comunication. When
that is established, unless told otherwise, you have clearance through
Class C airspace. If ATC tells you to not enter it, for whatever
reason, you don't enter it. In short, once again, if the 2-way
communication is established between pilot and ATC, the clearance
into/through Class C airspace is implied, and pilots may fly through.

Brad,

There is no such thing as "implied clearance" through class C as you state
above. Please see http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0708.html. Note
7-8-4.

Clearances MUST be read back. When you contact ATC in Charlie airspace,
you do not have to read back your "permission to enter" Charlie airspace.

Typical transmission would be:

ME Jackson Approach (JAN) Sundowner 1234L out of Madison, climbing through
500, headed to Covington LA. (Note the three W's).

JAN Sundowner 1234L, squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

ME 34L squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

Note, at this point, I have been given PERMISSION to enter Charlie
airspace.

Exactly what I've been saying. I never said you had to readback
a clearance INTO Class C, but that if a controller tells you for
whatever reason to remain OUTSIDE of Class C, that should be read back.

I did not have to read back the "permission" where as Class Bravo, I must
not only hear the magic words cleared into Bravo, I MUST read back that
clearance.

You will NEVER hear the words, cleared into Charlie.

Hope this clears it up for you.

I agree, but I never said you'd hear 'cleared into class C'.
Just that if they tell you to remain outside of it, that should be read
back, and sometime along the way, ATC should be able to either a) tell
you when you will be able to transition it, or b) work you around their
airspace, either via different suggested routing (note, not giving vectors),
different altitudes (possibly dropping you into class D, should that
area exist near/around there), or handing off to another controller who
can get you back on your course.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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