When to acknowledge ATC

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
.. .

You haven't provided anything to say otherwise. Now, your turn.
Put up docs to prove your side, or shut up.


It doesn't work that way. It's my position that there's no requirement to
read back the instruction to remain clear of Class C airspace. I can say
that with confidence because I'm intimately familiar with the procedures.
It isn't possible to provide documemtation that there's no such requirement.
You're asking me to prove a negative, that's not possible. That's why the
burden of proof is on you. It's your position that a readback is required.
If it is, it should be a simple matter for you to provide the documentation
supporting your position and proving me wrong. Please cite that
documentation.



It has to be read back. Like any call/acknowledgment. a simple
'roger' or ignoring it doesn't work. Read it back. Save your ass a
request to call the facility, let alone another checkride because
you've mucked things up, and read it back.


That's simply not the way it is. Are you a pilot?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message

How? ATC hadn't responded to you. that is not 2-way
communication. If ATC doesn't respond, what do YOU do? violate their
airspace? I know what knowledgable pilots will do, but what would YOU
do? (watch your answer here. it's the difference between getting your
pilot's license suspended, and doing the right thing.)


Here's the exchange again:

"ME Jackson Approach (JAN) Sundowner 1234L out of Madison, climbing
through
500, headed to Covington LA. (Note the three W's)."

"JAN Sundowner 1234L, squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89."

Jackson approach responded to the pilot's transmission with his callsign,
two-way radio communications have been established.

Correct. Even if ATC responds with "S34L, standby" you can enter. (But, if
you don't hear back fairly soon, try again. You may have been forgotton.
It's happened to me before.

Clearances must be read back. Just like receiving your
clearance from delivery.

Please cite the general requirement for clearances to be read back.

Yeah. I'd like to see this. I usually read back clearances JIC unless it's
really busy. But there's no requirement that taxiing, landing and airspace
clearances be read back. I wonder who this guy's instructor was.

moo
moo

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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
.. .

How? ATC hadn't responded to you. that is not 2-way
communication. If ATC doesn't respond, what do YOU do? violate their
airspace? I know what knowledgable pilots will do, but what would YOU
do? (watch your answer here. it's the difference between getting your
pilot's license suspended, and doing the right thing.)


Here's the exchange again:

"ME Jackson Approach (JAN) Sundowner 1234L out of Madison, climbing through
500, headed to Covington LA. (Note the three W's)."

"JAN Sundowner 1234L, squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89."
----------------------------------------------------

This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get at, that you said
has not been there. When ATC RESPONDS to the pilot's call, the 2-way
communication has been established. Your previous *5* posts had said
otherwise. I guess repeating the same thing almost 120 times as this
thread has done gets it into your head.

Jackson approach responded to the pilot's transmission with his callsign,
two-way radio communications have been established.

See above.


Once again, they hadn't. And if they don't respond, again, what
would you do?


Well, once again, they had.

Ahh well.. err... yeah. Now you backtrack.


Clearances must be read back. Just like receiving your
clearance from delivery.


Please cite the general requirement for clearances to be read back.


Fine. Once again. AIM, section 5-5-2:

5-5-2. Air Traffic Clearance

a. Pilot.

1. Acknowledges receipt and understanding of an ATC clearance.

3. Requests clarification or amendment, as appropriate, any time a
clearance is not fully understood or considered unacceptable from a
safety standpoint.

4. Promptly complies with an air traffic clearance upon receipt except
as necessary to cope with an emergency. Advises ATC as soon as possible
and obtains an amended clearance, if deviation is necessary.

I omitted #2 from that, as it deals with runway instructions.
Note here that ATC clearance does not only mean clearances on the
ground. As Clearance into Class B airspace is a CLEARANCE, you *MUST*
acknowledge receipt of that clearance. If you don't, see #4.


I have read it, many times. You'll likely never encounter anyone more
familiar with it than I. It does NOT use the phrase you quoted.

What makes you so familiar with it? Credentials, please?

If you don't change yours, your stubborness will gift you with
a request to call the TRACON facility handling you regarding the
concept of communications and readbacks.


That is extremely unlikely, but if it ever does happen, then they will be a
bit more knowledgeable about ATC after the call.

I doubt it. You're not doing their job.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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"Larry Dighera" wrote in
It's not as lonely out there as it appears!

Right. The Big Sky Theory belongs right up there with the Tooth
Fairy, Easter Bunny, and other childish notions. Just because you
can't see 'em, doesn't mean they're not there.

When I flew the SR22, the Traffic Display was almost disorienting. I was in
a training area beneath the arrival path of Pearson Intl. There were at
least a dozen planes within 15 nm. At one point, it appeared that I was
being shadowed by a target with a transponder but no Mode C (altitude)
information. It was like I couldn't get away from it. Maybe it was some
kind of artefact. Dunno. I'm going to ask my ATC pal. The whole thing was
mildly confusing and, I thought, influenced me to spend too much time
looking at it instead of out the window. But I expect that, like anything,
it just takes a bit of getting used to.

moo

"A Guy Called Tyketto"
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message

You haven't provided anything to say otherwise. Now, your turn.
Put up docs to prove your side, or shut up.

Since, pretty much, nobody is agreeing with you, you might want to
recinsider this request.


I never said you had to readback
a clearance INTO Class C, but that if a controller tells you for
whatever reason to remain OUTSIDE of Class C, that should be read back.

It SHOULD be read back? Are you sure? Previously you claimed it MUST be
read back. Which is it?

Damn it, Ron, you're trolling now.

Hardly. You're becomeing obtuse, inaccurate and slightly hyperbolic. And,
still, wrong.

moo

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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
.. .

I'm telling you, as well as the 7110.65P tells you, that you
will hear that.


You're not in a position to tell me anything on this subject and FAAO
7110.65 does NOT use that phrase.


Nor are you in any position to tell me anything on this subject
either. So quit trying to make yourself sound better than anyone else
here. So far, you've said that I'm wrong, others are wrong, but you
haven't backed up with anything to substantiate anything you're saying
as being RIGHT. Like I said before, put up, or shut up.


I'll say request, because even a 'roger' is acknowledgment.


Are you saying your original statement was wrong?

You're trolling again.


But if ATC must get a readback that the pilot acknowledges and knows he
must tay outside of that airspace.


There is no requirement for ATC to get that readback.


blah blah. I've heared this before. back up what you're saying.

Apparently, for as much a love you
have for aviation, your lack of knowledge of the regulation
documentation really disturbs me, as an ATC.


I know everything about these requirements, and you're not an ATC.

So you say. So you say. but you haven't shown anything to back
yourself. So why should we believe you? Unless you wrote the FARs, the
AIM, and the .65, which I know you haven't, you are in no position to
tell us what is right or wrong.


Call your local TRACON or
center facility, and ask them about Class Bravo airspace and readbacks
regarding entering and leaving it.


When my local TRACON gets such questions there frequently directed to me for
the answer.

Do tell. Which TRACON?

There's no need to, and there's no reason for ATC to desire one. How could
they require a readback?



No response = no confirmation that their call was received.
That could mean lost communications, which ATC has another set of
regulations to follow, to find out your situation.


Do you understand that acknowledgement IS a response?

Did I not mention that an acknowledgement is a response now
*10* posts ago, in which you tried to tell me that pilots didn't need
to respond? Yodaspeak, you are talking.


I'm training for ATC.


Really. You must be very early in the program. I teach ATC.

Still, you post no credentials. I wouldn't believe it if my
grandmother came up to me and told me she taught ATC without anything
to back it up.


We're supposed to keep separation of
aircraft, as well as the pilots of those aircrafts safe. That requires
communication. Communication is two-sided. If ATC is trying to
communicate, and doesn't hear the other side acknowledging, ATC isn't
going to assume everything is hunky-dory, and go about his other
business, especially in Class Bravo. He's going to want acknowledgment
that his call was heard and understood.


That's true, but your position has been that mere acknowledgement is not
sufficient, that the pilot MUST provide a readback. I and a few others have
been trying to explain to you that a readback is NOT required.

Then prove to me that it is not required. Where does it say
that pilot readback is not required? If a controller tells you:

N123AB, cleared into Class B airspace, maintain VFR at or below
8500 for traffic.

And you are at 10,500, You are telling me you are not going to
readback that you are cleared into the B airspace (AIM 5-5-2.a.1) and
descend to 8500 to maintain VFR (reading back what ATC has told you)?


If requiring flight following, yes. Either the controller
handing the pilot off to an Approach/Departure controller operating
class C will have already made radar contact, or if the pilot contacts
the Approach/Departure controller and requests flight following, they
will be given a transponder code and radar identified. Otherwise there
is no flight following.


No, is it still your position that there must be radar contact prior to
entry?

To Class B, yes. To Class C, it is debatable. I have heard
Class C controllers radar identify VFR traffic in Class C both within
and prior to entering Class C airspace.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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"A Guy Called Tyketto"

Thank you. This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get at all
along in this thread. You *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo
Airspace' to be allowed to enter Bravo airspace. That is your clearance
into it. Even the FARs state it:

I gotta ask: Are you a pilot? Your musings on this are incorrect and
increasingly of no interest to those who are trained in these procedures.
You don't know the full definition of "clearance". You are playing with
people who actually use this knowledge on a regular basis. By your
misunderstanding, we'd all have lost our tickets years ago.

Sec. 91.131 - Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B
airspace area except in compliance with ?91.129 and the following
rules:
(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility
having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that
area.
Some people just fail to understand that.

Godlike. One day you will feel a) stuipd or b) spanked. Maybe both.

Even more than that, if they tell you to remain outside of
Bravo airspace, or any airspace, and give you a reason, pilots are
requested to read that back.

What if they don't give a reason? They often don't.

"NY departure this is N123XX."

"VFR aircraft stay clear of Class Bravo airspace."

"N123XX wilco."

See? Now you know something new.

ATC is going to expect a readback.

Is that only if they give you a reason?

moo

"Steven P. McNicoll"
"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Mr. Dog does make his location reasonably known. If you look at the
'From' header of his articles:

From: "Happy Dog"

You'll note the domain of his e-mail address is: sympatico.ca

You're probably aware that '.ca' domain names indicate their location
to be Canada.

His location does not necessarily mean he's speaking about Canadian
procedures. Many Canadian pilots operate in the US regularly. He entered
a discussion where US procedures were being discussed and spoke of
Canadian procedures without identifying his comments as such. Bad form.

Yeah. I should never have expected you to figure that out.

moo

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Mr. Dog does make his location reasonably known. If you look at the
'From' header of his articles:

From: "Happy Dog"

You'll note the domain of his e-mail address is: sympatico.ca

You're probably aware that '.ca' domain names indicate their location
to be Canada.



His location does not necessarily mean he's speaking about Canadian
procedures. Many Canadian pilots operate in the US regularly. He entered a
discussion where US procedures were being discussed and spoke of Canadian
procedures without identifying his comments as such. Bad form.



Especially when he was quoting from the US AIM and controllers handbook
to make his half-assed assertions.
]

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

The regulation says the operator must receive an ATC clearance, it does not
state he *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace' to be allowed to
enter Bravo airspace.


I'm telling you, as well as the 7110.65P tells you, that you
will hear that. Going from the opposite direction, you will hear
something from Clearance Delivery, stating:


That's just one case of a clearance issuance in 7110.65P, you seem to
not be able to read the words OR in the appropriate passage for VFR's
(and then there's IFR).



I'll say request, because even a 'roger' is acknowledgment. But
if ATC must get a readback that the pilot acknowledges and knows he
must tay outside of that airspace.

ATC does not need any such thing. ATC assumes if you acknowledge you
have heard, understood, and will comply. The ONLY time a readback is
required by ATC is for runway crossing/hold-short instructions.


What makes you think that?


Because they will.

You keep asserting this, but there is nothing in the AIM, Controller's
Handbook, or in real life practice that indicates this. I've been told
to remain clear, remain VFR, remain all sorts of things and I've never
had to read it back. The only time it's an issue is if they tell me to
hold-short of the runway.



I'm training for ATC. '

Keep training.