boycott united forever

Years later, some new jackass comes along, wrecks the company and walks off
with a $1.5 million guaranteed pension after a trivial amount of time.
Meanwhile, the pilots, flight attendants and everybody else who MADE UNITED
WHAT IT WAS are screwed out of their contracted pension.

This is typical union a**hole envy mentality. $1.5M is a bunch of
money, but I'll bet United's run rate is about that much every 5 min.

Try looking at the real killers of the company; those egotistical
union pilots that get $250K + a year for 20 hours of work a month,
Flight Attendants that "play the game" with their sick time and
schedule and ground employees that take an hour and a half to turn
around a plane.

You want to see how a airline can be killed by the employees, take a
close look at Pan Am. United's going down the same path. Blame all
the executives you want, but you need to point fingers at the unions
to assign the real blame. They are the ones running the show.

In article , Don Hammer
wrote:

Try looking at the real killers of the company; those egotistical
union pilots that get $250K + a year for 20 hours of work a month....

Surely a group of pilots should know better than to believe that. VERY
few pilots approach anything close to what you describe, and if they
do, it's for about a year before they turn 60.

The rest of us are away from home 400 hours a month (compared to your
typical nine-to-five gone less than half of that), and dreaming of the
day we hit the six-figure mark.

Ah, yes, the "greedy union pilots."

Try being a seventh-year employee at a regional airline, flying as a
Part 121 captain, for less than 40K a year. Try and balance that
against your mythical 20-hour, $250K captain.

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Clifton Park, NY =USA=

Garner Miller wrote:

Don Hammer wrote:

Try looking at the real killers of the company; those egotistical
union pilots that get $250K + a year for 20 hours of work a month....

Surely a group of pilots should know better than to believe that. VERY
few pilots approach anything close to what you describe, and if they
do, it's for about a year before they turn 60.

The rest of us are away from home 400 hours a month (compared to your
typical nine-to-five gone less than half of that), and dreaming of the
day we hit the six-figure mark.

Ah, yes, the "greedy union pilots."

Try being a seventh-year employee at a regional airline, flying as a
Part 121 captain, for less than 40K a year. Try and balance that
against your mythical 20-hour, $250K captain.

Lower regional airline pay and longer hours are two of the reasons the
majors have problems. Here are some quotes from an article written in
2001 about pilot pay at the major airlines:

"A 10-year captain of Boeing 737-200s makes $157,152 at Delta, and
$178,152
at United. The most senior captain, with 30 years of experience, flying
a
Boeing 777 wide-body, makes $248,040 at Delta, and $254,748 at United."

"Delta pilots are expected to top United pilots, who now stand with the
highest pay among passenger carriers."

"In September, McCain compared the 1998 per capital U.S. income of
$20,120
with the $342,000 a year that the most senior United pilots will make by
2004."

Full article he

http://archives.californiaaviation.o.../msg00010.html

In article , James Robinson
wrote:

"A 10-year captain of Boeing 737-200s makes $157,152 at Delta, and
$178,152
at United. The most senior captain, with 30 years of experience, flying
a
Boeing 777 wide-body, makes $248,040 at Delta, and $254,748 at United."

You proved my point. Of all the captains at Delta, for example, how
many have been there 30 years? And how many are on the 777? Far, far
fewer than the entire pilot pool, I assure you.

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Clifton Park, NY =USA=

Garner Miller wrote:

James Robinson wrote:

"A 10-year captain of Boeing 737-200s makes $157,152 at Delta, and
$178,152 at United. The most senior captain, with 30 years of
experience, flying a Boeing 777 wide-body, makes $248,040 at
Delta, and $254,748 at United."

You proved my point. Of all the captains at Delta, for example, how
many have been there 30 years? And how many are on the 777? Far, far
fewer than the entire pilot pool, I assure you.

Certainly true, but you also suggested that a six-figure salary was
something to be dreaming of, yet a 10-year captain at the majors flying
a narrow-body at $150,000 to $175,000 is well into six figures. There
would be lots of them around. Considering that only something like the
top 13% of all households, (which can include two wage earners) have
incomes over $100k a year, that's not too shabby. Only 4% have incomes
over $150k.

There is also the amount of time actually spent flying. While Southwest
pays their pilots something north of $150k a year, plus stock options,
they also get about 50% more flight time out of them than the majors:

"Southwest gets about 75 hours' stick time a month from its pilots,
whereas most major carriers get only 48 to 52 hours," says Neidl. "It
makes a huge difference."

http://www.boardmember.com/issues/ar...ticle_id=11261

The high wages, restrictive work rules, and generous benefit plans
offered by the major airlines just can't compete with the streamlined
operations of the lower cost carriers.

Further, the suggestion that the wages compensate for being away from
home more than 400 hours a month doesn't explain the wages of truckers
or railroad employees, who are often away far more than that, yet only
make perhaps a third of what a pilot makes.

I'm not begrudging the fact that airline pilots make good money, as I'd
certainly like to be in their shoes. I'm simply stating that things are
really pretty good overall, but that economic reality has come home to
roost for the pilots on the major carriers.

An interesting discussion of pilot wages and productivity at the major
air carriers:

http://www.unisys.com/transportation...orecard__2.htm

In article , James Robinson
wrote:

You proved my point. Of all the captains at Delta, for example, how
many have been there 30 years? And how many are on the 777? Far, far
fewer than the entire pilot pool, I assure you.

Certainly true, but you also suggested that a six-figure salary was
something to be dreaming of, yet a 10-year captain at the majors flying
a narrow-body at $150,000 to $175,000 is well into six figures.

Of course. But average all the airline pilots, and we don't all makes
a quarter-million a year, and that's been my point from the beginning.
The media distorts that fact on a regular basis, making us all look
like millionaires. I wish!

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Clifton Park, NY =USA=

"Garner Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , James Robinson
wrote:

"A 10-year captain of Boeing 737-200s makes $157,152 at Delta, and
$178,152
at United. The most senior captain, with 30 years of experience, flying
a
Boeing 777 wide-body, makes $248,040 at Delta, and $254,748 at United."

You proved my point. Of all the captains at Delta, for example, how
many have been there 30 years? And how many are on the 777? Far, far
fewer than the entire pilot pool, I assure you.


His numbers are a hell of a lot closer than yours were, and he qualified his
statements.

You just spewed.

In article , Matt Barrow
wrote:

You proved my point. Of all the captains at Delta, for example, how
many have been there 30 years? And how many are on the 777? Far, far
fewer than the entire pilot pool, I assure you.


His numbers are a hell of a lot closer than yours were, and he qualified his
statements.


Fine.

A first-year pilot at Continental makes $25,900. UPS, $26,200.
United, $23,400. At Delta, $43,600. And surprise, Southwest comes
out ON TOP in first-year pay, at $44,900. And the 10-year captain at
Southwest? $166,000 -- *more* than the 10-year 737 captain at Delta
makes.

The thousands upon thousands of them on furlough are making exactly $0,
so make sure you factor that into your average. That's a very real
risk in this industry. Combine that with the mandatory age-60
retirement, and there really aren't that many years where you're making
the kind of money you guys keep -- to use your word -- "spewing."


You just spewed.

As did you.

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Clifton Park, NY =USA=

Garner Miller wrote:

In article , Matt Barrow
wrote:


You proved my point. Of all the captains at Delta, for example, how
many have been there 30 years? And how many are on the 777? Far, far
fewer than the entire pilot pool, I assure you.


His numbers are a hell of a lot closer than yours were, and he qualified his
statements.



Fine.

A first-year pilot at Continental makes $25,900. UPS, $26,200.
United, $23,400. At Delta, $43,600. And surprise, Southwest comes
out ON TOP in first-year pay, at $44,900. And the 10-year captain at
Southwest? $166,000 -- *more* than the 10-year 737 captain at Delta
makes.

However, it really is the cost per passenger flown that makes the
biggest difference and the data that another poster provided shows that
Southwest is in much better shape in this regard, apparently largely due
to their pilots flying much more hours per month for their salary.


The thousands upon thousands of them on furlough are making exactly $0,
so make sure you factor that into your average. That's a very real
risk in this industry. Combine that with the mandatory age-60
retirement, and there really aren't that many years where you're making
the kind of money you guys keep -- to use your word -- "spewing."

Yes, those are risks, but they are hardly unique to pilots. Layoffs are
common in many other industries. Few have legally mandated retirements,
however, most large companies now strongly encourage retirements by
employees starting at 55. Sure, the employees don't HAVE to retire, but
it often is pretty much made clear that you don't want to say no.


Matt