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#1
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In article ,
Jose wrote: So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC. That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane. (A little discretion goes a long way in such situations.) The next day you fly a Cirrus by programming the CID (Cirrus Autoflight Device) and pushing the GO button, essentially become a passenger while the glass cockpit does the work, and all that time goes in your book as PIC. That's right, because you're still responsible if the CID goes belly-up. That (and FAR 91.13) is why you can't just take a nap even when the autopilot is on. rg |
#2
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"Ron Garret" wrote in message
... In article , Jose wrote: So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC. That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane. No you haven't. There is nothing inherently careless and reckless about letting a non-pilot passenger manipulate the controls. It's a routine and accepted practice. Have you ever read of an FAA opinion criticizing the practice, or an enforcement action taken for that reason? --Gary |
#3
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In article ,
"Gary Drescher" wrote: "Ron Garret" wrote in message ... In article , Jose wrote: So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC. That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane. No you haven't. There is nothing inherently careless and reckless about letting a non-pilot passenger manipulate the controls. It's a routine and accepted practice. Have you ever read of an FAA opinion criticizing the practice, or an enforcement action taken for that reason? I said "probably", but perhaps I should have said "possibly". I know it's an accepted practice, and I don't know of any FAA action against it, but I haven't read all the case law. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the FAA used 91.13 in a situation where something bad happened as a result of someone letting a passenger fly. In any case, the bottom line here is that yes, not all the time you spend being PIC or acting as PIC is loggable as PIC time. rg |
#4
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Ron Garret wrote...
It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the FAA used 91.13 in a situation where something bad happened as a result of someone letting a passenger fly. The "something bad" would not be as a result of letting a passenger fly, it would be as a result of insufficient cockpit management. Same as a runaway trim or autopilot malfunction. and also responded to You're still responsible if the organic autopilot goes awry too. with Yes, but to legally take on that responsibility "on the record" requires an instructor's certificate. My understanding is that what the instructor certificate allows is for the student to count the instruction towards the required flight time. It has nothing to do with "taking on the responsibility". Jose -- The price of freedom is... well... freedom. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#5
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So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is
not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC. That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane. You break 91.13 at the FAA's discretion. But I see nothing careless or reckless unless I take a nap. The next day you fly a Cirrus by programming the CID (Cirrus Autoflight Device) and pushing the GO button, essentially become a passenger while the glass cockpit does the work, and all that time goes in your book as PIC. That's right, because you're still responsible if the CID goes belly-up. You're still responsible if the organic autopilot goes awry too. Jose -- I used to make money in the stock market, now I make money in the basement. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#6
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Please read this thread carefully, it answers the original question.
http://www.risingup.com/forums/archi...php/t-378.html |
#7
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In article ,
Jose wrote: So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC. That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane. You break 91.13 at the FAA's discretion. But I see nothing careless or reckless unless I take a nap. As you yourself observed, what you see doesn't matter. It's what the FAA sees that counts. The next day you fly a Cirrus by programming the CID (Cirrus Autoflight Device) and pushing the GO button, essentially become a passenger while the glass cockpit does the work, and all that time goes in your book as PIC. That's right, because you're still responsible if the CID goes belly-up. You're still responsible if the organic autopilot goes awry too. Yes, but to legally take on that responsibility "on the record" requires an instructor's certificate. I think this structuring of the rules is deliberate and not just an oversight. It would have been easy enough to say that a pilot can log PIC any time he is acting as PIC, but they apparently went to a lot of effort not to say that. I think this was a deliberate attempt to arrange things in such a way that turning over the controls to Aunt Tillie is not explicitly banned, but that if you choose to do so and anything goes wrong as a result (even in retrospect) they can nail your ass to the wall. There are actually other circumstances under which someone acting as PIC can't log the time. For example, if an unlicensed passenger in a plane where the pilot is incapacitated takes over and lands the plane then that passenger is PIC operating (presumably) under the authority of 91.3(b). But he still can't log the time. rg |
#8
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"Ron Garret" wrote in message
... I think this structuring of the rules is deliberate and not just an oversight. It would have been easy enough to say that a pilot can log PIC any time he is acting as PIC, but they apparently went to a lot of effort not to say that. In a flight that doesn't require multiple pilots, the FAA does not want two pilots to log PIC time simultaneously (one as the actual PIC, the other as the rated sole manipulator). I'd guess that's why they don't just say that time *as* PIC is *loggable* as PIC time. They probably just didn't think of the non-pilot-manipulator case when they wrote the regulation. I think this was a deliberate attempt to arrange things in such a way that turning over the controls to Aunt Tillie is not explicitly banned, but that if you choose to do so and anything goes wrong as a result (even in retrospect) they can nail your ass to the wall. It's be just as easy for them to nail you if the time were loggable. --Gary |
#9
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In article ,
"Gary Drescher" wrote: "Ron Garret" wrote in message ... I think this structuring of the rules is deliberate and not just an oversight. It would have been easy enough to say that a pilot can log PIC any time he is acting as PIC, but they apparently went to a lot of effort not to say that. In a flight that doesn't require multiple pilots, the FAA does not want two pilots to log PIC time simultaneously (one as the actual PIC, the other as the rated sole manipulator). I'd guess that's why they don't just say that time *as* PIC is *loggable* as PIC time. They probably just didn't think of the non-pilot-manipulator case when they wrote the regulation. I think this was a deliberate attempt to arrange things in such a way that turning over the controls to Aunt Tillie is not explicitly banned, but that if you choose to do so and anything goes wrong as a result (even in retrospect) they can nail your ass to the wall. It's be just as easy for them to nail you if the time were loggable. Yeah, you're probably right. I concede the point. rg |
#10
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![]() "Ron Natalie" wrote in message ... Jose wrote: I'm a Captain in all the planes but move to the right seat often. When I'm in the right seat what can I log? IMHO, If you are the Pilot In Command, you log PIC time, no matter what (physical) seat you sit in. Where you sit is not important. However, the rules don't say "LOG PIC TIME WHEN YOU ARE PIC." In order to do that there are additional qualifications. The most commonly used one is that the regulations (lets say Part 135) require more than one pilot. My strict reading of 61.51(e) says that if you are not the "sole manipulator", then even if you =are= the PIC, then so long as anybody else is handling the controls, you can't log PIC time,Y You better read 61.51 again. There are three more clauses than the one you're reading. Though it refers to currency, you might check 61.58 for some insights as well. |
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