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Logging Right Seat Time



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 22nd 05, 05:42 AM
Ron Garret
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In article ,
Jose wrote:

So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is
not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully
supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC.


That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by
letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane. (A
little discretion goes a long way in such situations.)

The next day you fly a
Cirrus by programming the CID (Cirrus Autoflight Device) and pushing the
GO button, essentially become a passenger while the glass cockpit does
the work, and all that time goes in your book as PIC.


That's right, because you're still responsible if the CID goes belly-up.
That (and FAR 91.13) is why you can't just take a nap even when the
autopilot is on.

rg
  #2  
Old May 22nd 05, 01:00 PM
Gary Drescher
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"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jose wrote:

So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is
not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully
supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC.


That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by
letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane.


No you haven't. There is nothing inherently careless and reckless about
letting a non-pilot passenger manipulate the controls. It's a routine and
accepted practice. Have you ever read of an FAA opinion criticizing the
practice, or an enforcement action taken for that reason?

--Gary


  #3  
Old May 22nd 05, 08:47 PM
Ron Garret
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In article ,
"Gary Drescher" wrote:

"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jose wrote:

So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is
not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully
supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC.


That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by
letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane.


No you haven't. There is nothing inherently careless and reckless about
letting a non-pilot passenger manipulate the controls. It's a routine and
accepted practice. Have you ever read of an FAA opinion criticizing the
practice, or an enforcement action taken for that reason?


I said "probably", but perhaps I should have said "possibly". I know
it's an accepted practice, and I don't know of any FAA action against
it, but I haven't read all the case law. It wouldn't surprise me a bit
if the FAA used 91.13 in a situation where something bad happened as a
result of someone letting a passenger fly.

In any case, the bottom line here is that yes, not all the time you
spend being PIC or acting as PIC is loggable as PIC time.

rg
  #4  
Old May 22nd 05, 11:04 PM
Jose
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Ron Garret wrote...
It wouldn't surprise me a bit
if the FAA used 91.13 in a situation where something bad happened as a
result of someone letting a passenger fly.


The "something bad" would not be as a result of letting a passenger fly,
it would be as a result of insufficient cockpit management. Same as a
runaway trim or autopilot malfunction.

and also responded to
You're still responsible if the organic autopilot goes awry too.


with

Yes, but to legally take on that responsibility "on the record" requires
an instructor's certificate.


My understanding is that what the instructor certificate allows is for
the student to count the instruction towards the required flight time.
It has nothing to do with "taking on the responsibility".

Jose
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  #5  
Old May 22nd 05, 01:57 PM
Jose
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So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is
not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully
supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC.



That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by
letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane.


You break 91.13 at the FAA's discretion. But I see nothing careless or
reckless unless I take a nap.

The next day you fly a
Cirrus by programming the CID (Cirrus Autoflight Device) and pushing the
GO button, essentially become a passenger while the glass cockpit does
the work, and all that time goes in your book as PIC.



That's right, because you're still responsible if the CID goes belly-up.


You're still responsible if the organic autopilot goes awry too.

Jose
--
I used to make money in the stock market, now I make money in the basement.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #6  
Old May 22nd 05, 03:38 PM
CloudyIFR
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Please read this thread carefully, it answers the original question.

http://www.risingup.com/forums/archi...php/t-378.html

  #7  
Old May 22nd 05, 08:34 PM
Ron Garret
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In article ,
Jose wrote:

So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is
not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully
supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC.



That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by
letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane.


You break 91.13 at the FAA's discretion. But I see nothing careless or
reckless unless I take a nap.


As you yourself observed, what you see doesn't matter. It's what the
FAA sees that counts.

The next day you fly a
Cirrus by programming the CID (Cirrus Autoflight Device) and pushing the
GO button, essentially become a passenger while the glass cockpit does
the work, and all that time goes in your book as PIC.



That's right, because you're still responsible if the CID goes belly-up.


You're still responsible if the organic autopilot goes awry too.


Yes, but to legally take on that responsibility "on the record" requires
an instructor's certificate.

I think this structuring of the rules is deliberate and not just an
oversight. It would have been easy enough to say that a pilot can log
PIC any time he is acting as PIC, but they apparently went to a lot of
effort not to say that. I think this was a deliberate attempt to
arrange things in such a way that turning over the controls to Aunt
Tillie is not explicitly banned, but that if you choose to do so and
anything goes wrong as a result (even in retrospect) they can nail your
ass to the wall.

There are actually other circumstances under which someone acting as PIC
can't log the time. For example, if an unlicensed passenger in a plane
where the pilot is incapacitated takes over and lands the plane then
that passenger is PIC operating (presumably) under the authority of
91.3(b). But he still can't log the time.

rg
  #8  
Old May 22nd 05, 09:08 PM
Gary Drescher
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"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...
I think this structuring of the rules is deliberate and not just an
oversight. It would have been easy enough to say that a pilot can log
PIC any time he is acting as PIC, but they apparently went to a lot of
effort not to say that.


In a flight that doesn't require multiple pilots, the FAA does not want two
pilots to log PIC time simultaneously (one as the actual PIC, the other as
the rated sole manipulator). I'd guess that's why they don't just say that
time *as* PIC is *loggable* as PIC time. They probably just didn't think of
the non-pilot-manipulator case when they wrote the regulation.

I think this was a deliberate attempt to
arrange things in such a way that turning over the controls to Aunt
Tillie is not explicitly banned, but that if you choose to do so and
anything goes wrong as a result (even in retrospect) they can nail your
ass to the wall.


It's be just as easy for them to nail you if the time were loggable.

--Gary


  #9  
Old May 22nd 05, 10:10 PM
Ron Garret
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In article ,
"Gary Drescher" wrote:

"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...
I think this structuring of the rules is deliberate and not just an
oversight. It would have been easy enough to say that a pilot can log
PIC any time he is acting as PIC, but they apparently went to a lot of
effort not to say that.


In a flight that doesn't require multiple pilots, the FAA does not want two
pilots to log PIC time simultaneously (one as the actual PIC, the other as
the rated sole manipulator). I'd guess that's why they don't just say that
time *as* PIC is *loggable* as PIC time. They probably just didn't think of
the non-pilot-manipulator case when they wrote the regulation.

I think this was a deliberate attempt to
arrange things in such a way that turning over the controls to Aunt
Tillie is not explicitly banned, but that if you choose to do so and
anything goes wrong as a result (even in retrospect) they can nail your
ass to the wall.


It's be just as easy for them to nail you if the time were loggable.


Yeah, you're probably right. I concede the point.

rg
  #10  
Old May 22nd 05, 05:02 AM
Matt Barrow
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"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...
Jose wrote:
I'm a Captain in all the planes but move to the right seat often. When
I'm in the right seat what can I log?



IMHO, If you are the Pilot In Command, you log PIC time, no matter what
(physical) seat you sit in.


Where you sit is not important. However, the rules don't say "LOG PIC
TIME WHEN YOU ARE PIC." In order to do that there are additional
qualifications. The most commonly used one is that the regulations
(lets say Part 135) require more than one pilot.

My strict reading of 61.51(e) says that if you are not the "sole
manipulator", then even if you =are= the PIC, then so long as anybody
else is handling the controls, you can't log PIC time,Y


You better read 61.51 again. There are three more clauses than the
one you're reading.


Though it refers to currency, you might check 61.58 for some insights as
well.



 




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