"normal" procedure for pop-up filing

Roy has put his finger on it. Transitioning from flight following to hard
IFR takes the FSS out of the loop. I have never understood why pilots ignore
the benefits of flight following.

Bob Gardner

"paul kgyy" wrote in message
oups.com...
I was taught that, if I needed to file an IFR flight plan in the middle
of a trip, I should contact FSS first to file and get clearance, then
contact ATC. On the other hand, I hear frequent references in
rec.aviation to pilots who just contact ATC directly. Does this depend
on how busy ATC is - i.e. near Chicago contact FSS, near Moline contact
Moline approach?

Why don't more people use flight following? It distracts them from being
able to enjoy their satellite radio, Bob.

I'm with you; I feel weird flying VFR more than fifteen miles without
talking with ATC for flight following. Being based under a Class B, I see
a lot of benefits to talking with ATC, including being practiced enough to
be able to work with busy approach controllers.

I've heard people asking for radar service from NY Tracon. The people that
make their request well tend to get service. The folks that don't seem to
know where they are and what they want generally aren't as fortunate. If
you practice ATC communication (by getting VFR flight following), you'll
be more comfortable when you need to fly IFR in the system.

-Jack



"Bob Gardner" writes:

Roy has put his finger on it. Transitioning from flight following to hard
IFR takes the FSS out of the loop. I have never understood why pilots ignore
the benefits of flight following.

Bob Gardner

"paul kgyy" wrote in message
roups.com...
I was taught that, if I needed to file an IFR flight plan in the middle
of a trip, I should contact FSS first to file and get clearance, then
contact ATC. On the other hand, I hear frequent references in
rec.aviation to pilots who just contact ATC directly. Does this depend
on how busy ATC is - i.e. near Chicago contact FSS, near Moline contact
Moline approach?

Jack wrote:

Why don't more people use flight following? It distracts them from
being
able to enjoy their satellite radio, Bob.

That is absolutely hilarious, as I did that once. However, ATC made
the decision easy for me since the next approach facility would not
accept my VFR handoff from the previous controller, nor would they
answer my VFR calls, yet their side of the frequency was quiet (at this
particular facility the ocntroller might work two frequencies, but he
transmits on both).

Oh well, I said to my intercom, I guess I will enjoy a few moments of
uninterrupted satellite radio. :-)

--
Peter

: Why don't more people use flight following?

The biggest reason I've heard (and feel often enough) is that you're likely to
get "vectored" even if clear of controlled airspace. I've got a friend with a turbo
Arrow that flies along VFR without flight following right over the top of Class C and
Class B at 10500 or 11500. If you were to call up approach while doing, that, seems
like 9 times out of 10 they'll vector you 10-20 miles out of the way. Similarly if
you're skirting under an airspace... likely to get vectored further out.

It's unfortunate, since it discourages people who enjoy the freedom of VFR
from getting additional safety of traffic advisories and being "in the system."

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:
: Why don't more people use flight following?


The biggest reason I've heard (and feel often enough) is that
you're likely to get "vectored" even if clear of controlled airspace.
I've got a friend with a turbo Arrow that flies along VFR without
flight following right over the top of Class C and Class B at 10500
or 11500. If you were to call up approach while doing, that, seems
like 9 times out of 10 they'll vector you 10-20 miles out of the way.
Similarly if you're skirting under an airspace... likely to get
vectored further out.

There's two sides to this.

One is that if you're VFR in Class E airspace, they really don't have
any authority to vector you (I'm sure somebody will come up with some
exception). Sometimes controllers do try to do so anyway, but if you
really don't want to comply, you can just say "cancel flight
following, request frequency change" and go on your fat, dumb, and
happy way.

The other is that if you're doing something like skirting the top of a
Class B by 500 feet and the controller suggests a heading or route to
you, it might just be in both of your best interests to go along with
it. You scratch his back and he'll scratch yours. There's a lot of
heavy metal climbing out the top of a Class B. I don't want to be the
hood ornament on a 747, nor do I want to discover what the wake
turbulence of one feels like.

Roy Smith wrote:
wrote:

: Why don't more people use flight following?



The biggest reason I've heard (and feel often enough) is that
you're likely to get "vectored" even if clear of controlled airspace.
I've got a friend with a turbo Arrow that flies along VFR without
flight following right over the top of Class C and Class B at 10500
or 11500. If you were to call up approach while doing, that, seems
like 9 times out of 10 they'll vector you 10-20 miles out of the way.
Similarly if you're skirting under an airspace... likely to get
vectored further out.


There's two sides to this.

One is that if you're VFR in Class E airspace, they really don't have
any authority to vector you (I'm sure somebody will come up with some
exception). Sometimes controllers do try to do so anyway, but if you
really don't want to comply, you can just say "cancel flight
following, request frequency change" and go on your fat, dumb, and
happy way.

The other is that if you're doing something like skirting the top of a
Class B by 500 feet and the controller suggests a heading or route to
you, it might just be in both of your best interests to go along with
it. You scratch his back and he'll scratch yours. There's a lot of
heavy metal climbing out the top of a Class B. I don't want to be the
hood ornament on a 747, nor do I want to discover what the wake
turbulence of one feels like.

Yes. I've gone over the top of Chicago twice on the way to OSH. You know you
can't get an IFR routing anywhere near there, so I crossed the CBAS at 10500
VFR. I was happy to have advisories as the aluminum concentration was high. The
controller seemed to be glad I was talking and squawking, too. He did give me a
couple of zigzags, but that's better than going way out over Lake Michigan or 50
miles to the west.

Agreed. Getting thru/around/over Class B is one reason that VFR makes
more sense than VFR when VMC but I want radar advisories when I'm doing
that. I normally ask "Maule 44Foxtrot requests radar advisories"
rather than "Flight Following". Don't know if that makes any difference
but If I decide to overfly or underfly a Class B, I'm not asking for
routing, I'm asking for traffic advisories. And while I'll welcome zigs
and zags, I'm probably going to follow my strategy and not accept route
or altitude deviations 'suggested' by ATC. The only hard stop is
"remain clear".

In practice, I'm typically IFR in VMC and not happy with my options.
When I cancel, it's pretty clear that I'm pursuing a different route and
rarely are others suggested.

Dave Butler wrote:
Roy Smith wrote:
The biggest reason I've heard (and feel often enough) is that
you're likely to get "vectored" even if clear of controlled airspace.
I've got a friend with a turbo Arrow that flies along VFR without
flight following right over the top of Class C and Class B at 10500
or 11500. If you were to call up approach while doing, that, seems
like 9 times out of 10 they'll vector you 10-20 miles out of the way.
Similarly if you're skirting under an airspace... likely to get
vectored further out.

There's two sides to this.
One is that if you're VFR in Class E airspace, they really don't have
any authority to vector you (I'm sure somebody will come up with some
exception). Sometimes controllers do try to do so anyway, but if you
really don't want to comply, you can just say "cancel flight
following, request frequency change" and go on your fat, dumb, and
happy way.

The other is that if you're doing something like skirting the top of a
Class B by 500 feet and the controller suggests a heading or route to
you, it might just be in both of your best interests to go along with
it. You scratch his back and he'll scratch yours. There's a lot of
heavy metal climbing out the top of a Class B. I don't want to be the
hood ornament on a 747, nor do I want to discover what the wake
turbulence of one feels like.


Yes. I've gone over the top of Chicago twice on the way to OSH. You know
you can't get an IFR routing anywhere near there, so I crossed the CBAS
at 10500 VFR. I was happy to have advisories as the aluminum
concentration was high. The controller seemed to be glad I was talking
and squawking, too. He did give me a couple of zigzags, but that's
better than going way out over Lake Michigan or 50 miles to the west.

Maule Driver wrote:
I normally ask "Maule 44Foxtrot requests radar advisories"
rather than "Flight Following".

There is absolutely no difference between the two. They are just two
different names for exactly the same service.

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
.. .
....snip...
I normally ask "Maule 44Foxtrot requests radar advisories"
rather than "Flight Following". Don't know if that makes any difference
....snip...

IIRC, "flight following" is an informal way of saying "radar services"
(i.e., the two are synonymous).

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
news:1117123248.79333@sj-nntpcache-5...

Yes. I've gone over the top of Chicago twice on the way to OSH. You know
you can't get an IFR routing anywhere near there, so I crossed the CBAS at
10500 VFR. I was happy to have advisories as the aluminum concentration
was high. The controller seemed to be glad I was talking and squawking,
too. He did give me a couple of zigzags, but that's better than going way
out over Lake Michigan or 50 miles to the west.

Another question then: I am planning to fly from PVD Providence RI to
Madison MSN on 24/25th July. The backend on the route was to be MKG
(Muskegon), BAE (Badger) and MSN. Is it likely then that I will not get
cleared IFR through to MSN and if wanted to follow that route would be best
to cancel IFR and go VFR weather permitting even getting a pop up clearance
at MSN to descend through cloud?