TV Interview With Pilot From ADIZ Incident

I can't wait for the book...

Title suggestions are requested.

DUH!
would be a title.

CLUELESS over DC
would be another.

I saw the interview on MSNBC.
I read the statement that his lawyer put out which switched between a first
and third person narrative, making me also question the intelligence of his
attorney, although previously, he served as an attorney with the Federal
Aviation Administration. He is past president of the National Transportation
Safety Board Bar Association. hmmm...

"At this point, for the first time, we were able to visually identify our
location as being in a Flight Restricted Zone (FRZ)" Ok, so before they
were able to identify their location they weren't following their progress
and were, for lack of another word, lost?

Nothing I've seen, heard, or read about his flight has changed my opinion of
either his nonchalant attitude and or his inability or unwillingness to
flight plan through complex airspace.

I feel no sympathy for Mr. Sheaffer. I feel a little for Mr. Martin, but he
too, even as a 30 hour student, should have flight planned the route and
made himself extremely familiar with it.

No call to FSS. No VFR or ADIZ flight plan. No flight following. No clue.
No more ticket. No excuses.

Jim



"Paul kgyy" wrote in message
oups.com...
I can't wait for the book...

Title suggestions are requested.

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
DUH!

I feel no sympathy for Mr. Sheaffer. I feel a little for Mr. Martin, but
he
too, even as a 30 hour student, should have flight planned the route and
made himself extremely familiar with it.

No call to FSS. No VFR or ADIZ flight plan. No flight following. No
clue.
No more ticket. No excuses.

I agree with Jim 100%. The statement also says that they "took a more
southerly route in order to avoid the restricted airspace over camp david",
but its kinda unbelievable because the direct route was right over DC. To
get into camp david they would have to fly a lot more west that they needed
to get to the airport in NC.
If I ever need to fly under VFR in the proximity of the area, I'd definitely
fly a flight plan and get flight following....

The statement also says that they "took a more
southerly route in order to avoid the restricted airspace over camp
david",
but its kinda unbelievable because the direct route was right over DC. To
get into camp david they would have to fly a lot more west that they
needed
to get to the airport in NC.

I looked at that too.
In 0.24 seconds Googleing "DC ADIZ TFR Camp David Prohibited" gave me
http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800/docs/tfrweb.pdf
as it's #1 return.
This guy went on and on about how he checked so many websites about weather
and such, even the AOPA web site. If he was so worried about the Camp David
P area, he could have found the FAA TFR pdf as easy as I did, and if he
would have, he would have saw the list of requirements not only to enter the
ADIZ, but the intercept procedures as well.

Jim

Jim Burns wrote:

I feel no sympathy for Mr. Sheaffer. I feel a little for Mr. Martin, but he
too, even as a 30 hour student, should have flight planned the route and
made himself extremely familiar with it.

He should have?? He was a passenger. While it may be a good
learning exercise (assuming he was even at that stage of his training),
I wouldn't expect a passenger to go to that kind of effort. If this
was a training flight with an actual instructor, that would be a
different story.

When I go along for a ride as a passenger, I don't flight plan a
proposed route. I let the PIC take care of that.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

The "he was a passenger" is a cop out. If you are a pilot, even a student
pilot with only 30 hours, and you are in the airplane, why wouldn't you do
everything you could to be prepared?? which to me starts at home with
flight planning.

At 30 hours, I would expect that the student pilot/passenger had completed
at least part of his cross country training, so I'd expect that if he had
agreed to do the hands on flying through that type of airspace that he would
take the effort to flight plan it also. Granted, he was not PIC, nor was he
under any obligation or requirement to flight plan the trip, but any student
worth his salt would have if knowing in advance that he would be doing the
actual flying through that airspace.

I'll also put some more blame on Mr. Shaeffer for not mentoring the student
pilot towards flight planning the trip. I would expect that suggestion of
any private pilot that takes a cross country flight with a student pilot.
You don't have to be an instructor to promote and display proper flight
planning to students.

....and when I go on a cross country flight "just as a passenger" of another
pilot, I usually will take the trouble to draw a line on a map... takes all
of about 45 seconds. The closest prohibited area here is a live fire
bombing range in the middle of a restricted area which is in the middle of a
MOA, I don't care who the PIC is, I'll still plan the proposed route.

Jim

"John Galban" wrote in message
oups.com...


Jim Burns wrote:

I feel no sympathy for Mr. Sheaffer. I feel a little for Mr. Martin,
but he
too, even as a 30 hour student, should have flight planned the route and
made himself extremely familiar with it.

He should have?? He was a passenger. While it may be a good
learning exercise (assuming he was even at that stage of his training),
I wouldn't expect a passenger to go to that kind of effort. If this
was a training flight with an actual instructor, that would be a
different story.

When I go along for a ride as a passenger, I don't flight plan a
proposed route. I let the PIC take care of that.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
The "he was a passenger" is a cop out. If you are a pilot, even a student
pilot with only 30 hours, and you are in the airplane, why wouldn't you do
everything you could to be prepared??

Perhaps because you understand the concept of PIC and take it seriously. So
you understand that the flight is not in any way your responsibility; and
you have no reason to doubt that the person who *is* responsible is capable
of doing the job. (Or if you *do* have reason to doubt that, then you
shouldn't agree to the trip no matter how "prepared" you are.)

--Gary

Along those lines.... I had a friend, a PPL, non instrument rated that had a
172, infact, he was the influence that got me interested in flying. Fully
capable of doing the PIC job, over 1000 hours at the time, I never had a
reason to doubt it, until one trip.

After I got my PPL and then my IR, we and our wives took a trip together,
his airplane, he as PIC for the whole trip. However, I also planned it,
both ways, there and back, and carried my charts and plates along "just in
case".

Before our trip home, he got the weather and filed VFR. I also got the
weather and noted the FA at home called for increasing cloudiness and
lowering ceilings.

We took off and headed out. The weather was just as forecast. Ceilings
started to come down, so he descended. Up ahead it was obvious that a lower
layer was also coming in below us. His solution?? "We'll just stay here
(VFR) between layers then circle down over the interstate and follow it
home." He couldn't hold altitude within 500 feet while we were between
layers.

That was when the flight became MY responsibility, even though I was not PIC
and was just a passenger, I became PIC and relieved him of his
"responsibility". I called center, filed IFR, flew the rest of the way
home, shot the approach down to about 800 ft AGL. Everybody agreed that was
better than flying 300 miles following the interstate at 800 agl.

Sometimes it pays to do what you can instead of just what is required. The
concept of PIC does not relinquish another person from the responsibility
they have to themselves and their family. The PIC is in charge of the
flight, no doubt, but I'm still in charge of me and when my responsibilities
to myself and my family conflict with another persons responsibilities as
PIC, I'd rather be prepared to offer the PIC alternatives.

Jim

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...
"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
The "he was a passenger" is a cop out. If you are a pilot, even a
student
pilot with only 30 hours, and you are in the airplane, why wouldn't you
do
everything you could to be prepared??

Perhaps because you understand the concept of PIC and take it seriously.
So
you understand that the flight is not in any way your responsibility; and
you have no reason to doubt that the person who *is* responsible is
capable
of doing the job. (Or if you *do* have reason to doubt that, then you
shouldn't agree to the trip no matter how "prepared" you are.)

--Gary

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
That was when the flight became MY responsibility, even though I was not
PIC
and was just a passenger, I became PIC and relieved him of his
"responsibility". I called center, filed IFR, flew the rest of the way
home, shot the approach down to about 800 ft AGL. Everybody agreed that
was
better than flying 300 miles following the interstate at 800 agl.

Sometimes it pays to do what you can instead of just what is required.
The
concept of PIC does not relinquish another person from the responsibility
they have to themselves and their family. The PIC is in charge of the
flight, no doubt, but I'm still in charge of me and when my
responsibilities
to myself and my family conflict with another persons responsibilities as
PIC, I'd rather be prepared to offer the PIC alternatives.

Cool story! Good thing you were prepared and capable!

I certainly agree that it's a great idea for any passenger to provide
redundancy to the best of his or her ability. I just don't think it's
warranted to criticize a passenger for choosing not to on a particular
flight. Evem a pilot passenger might just choose to take a nap instead.

And (as I elaborated in another post just now), I don't think there's much
evidence that this student *wasn't* taking full interest in the flight. He
was doing all the flying; and he and the PIC have stated that they both did
pre-flight planning of their route (between the Camp David ADIZ and the DC
ADIZ). But they somehow got extremely lost while trying to follow that
route.

--Gary

Jim Burns wrote:

Along those lines.... I had a friend, a PPL, non instrument rated that had a
172, infact, he was the influence that got me interested in flying. Fully
capable of doing the PIC job, over 1000 hours at the time, I never had a
reason to doubt it, until one trip.

After I got my PPL and then my IR, we and our wives took a trip together,
his airplane, he as PIC for the whole trip. However, I also planned it,
both ways, there and back, and carried my charts and plates along "just in
case".

Before our trip home, he got the weather and filed VFR. I also got the
weather and noted the FA at home called for increasing cloudiness and
lowering ceilings.

We took off and headed out. The weather was just as forecast. Ceilings
started to come down, so he descended. Up ahead it was obvious that a lower
layer was also coming in below us. His solution?? "We'll just stay here
(VFR) between layers then circle down over the interstate and follow it
home." He couldn't hold altitude within 500 feet while we were between
layers.

That was when the flight became MY responsibility, even though I was not PIC
and was just a passenger, I became PIC and relieved him of his
"responsibility". I called center, filed IFR, flew the rest of the way
home, shot the approach down to about 800 ft AGL. Everybody agreed that was
better than flying 300 miles following the interstate at 800 agl.

Sometimes it pays to do what you can instead of just what is required. The
concept of PIC does not relinquish another person from the responsibility
they have to themselves and their family. The PIC is in charge of the
flight, no doubt, but I'm still in charge of me and when my responsibilities
to myself and my family conflict with another persons responsibilities as
PIC, I'd rather be prepared to offer the PIC alternatives.

And just how was a student pilot to "assume PIC" when it wasn't legal
for him to do so?

Your situation above isn't anything like the DC situation. It sounds
from the reports that the student did get involved reasonably
appropriately, then again none of us were in the cockpit to know exactly
who did what when.


Matt