Class B busted...My problem or the controller's ?

Larry Dighera wrote:

While the ultimate responsibility for complying with FARs lies with
the PIC, it is my understanding that ATC is mandated by FAAO 7110.65*
to coordinate transit into/through the airspace of other facilities.

So would you say that if one were in the pattern that it would imply
the same responsibilities of ATC as if I were on, say, flight
following?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

Without checking FAAO 7110.65, I would say yes.

Interesting...

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

I would call the tower manager, and discuss the issue to get his
views. Then I'd file a NASA form, and suggest how to change the
current procedures to make the issue less problematic.

I meant: How would you resolve the problem if it were happening right
now?

Thanks Larry!

Antonio

"Antoñio" wrote in message
ups.com...

Larry Dighera wrote:

While the ultimate responsibility for complying with FARs lies with
the PIC, it is my understanding that ATC is mandated by FAAO 7110.65*
to coordinate transit into/through the airspace of other facilities.

So would you say that if one were in the pattern that it would imply
the same responsibilities of ATC as if I were on, say, flight
following?

I don't know whether that's the case. But even with flight following, you
can't enter Class B unless you're told "Cleared into Class Bravo". (If
you're flying IFR, then ATC doesn't have to mention Class B, but that's
because you're already on a clearance if you're flying IFR.) You *can*,
however, enter class C or D just by virtue of having flight following,
because no clearance is needed for that airspace; all you need is two-way
communication with ATC, which you've already got via your flight following.

--Gary

"Antoñio" wrote in message
ups.com...
So would you say that if one were in the pattern that it would imply
the same responsibilities of ATC as if I were on, say, flight
following?

As Gary points out, whether or not ATC is coordinating transit through other
airspace, you still need the clearance. Beyond that, since flight into the
Class B isn't necessary for operating at KBFI, there would be no need for
ATC to coordinate transit through the Class B, and thus you would have no
expectation that they would.

Pete

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Anto=F1io" wrote in message
ups.com...
So would you say that if one were in the pattern that it would imply
the same responsibilities of ATC as if I were on, say, flight
following?

As Gary points out, whether or not ATC is coordinating transit through ot=
her
airspace, you still need the clearance. Beyond that, since flight into t=
he
Class B isn't necessary for operating at KBFI, there would be no need for
ATC to coordinate transit through the Class B, and thus you would have no
expectation that they would.

Pete

You mean flight into class B for landing at BFI is not *normally*
required. In this particular case I maintain it was for safe
separation.

Given the above is true, how do you think AIM 3-2-1d figures in? ...

"d.VFR requirements. It is the responsibility of the pilot to insure
that ATC clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior to
entry into class B, Class C, or Class D airspace. The pilot retains
this responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories. (See 14 CFR
Part 91)"

Antonio

"Antoñio" wrote in message
ups.com...
You mean flight into class B for landing at BFI is not *normally*
required. In this particular case I maintain it was for safe
separation.

Extending the downwind leg DID NOT require you to fly through the Class B
airspace.

Given the above is true, how do you think AIM 3-2-1d figures in? ...

It's not true. Regardless, AIM 3-2-1d serves as a reminder that whatever
you thought that the Class D controller's instructions told you to do, you
are required to ensure that you meet the requirements for entry into the
Class B airspace before doing so.

Pete

Peter Duniho wrote:

It's not true. Regardless, AIM 3-2-1d serves as a reminder that whatever
you thought that the Class D controller's instructions told you to do, you
are required to ensure that you meet the requirements for entry into the
Class B airspace before doing so.

Pete

How could I have done that in this case?

Antonio

"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...
How could I have done that in this case?

You could ask the Class D controller to obtain a clearance for you, though
given how busy you say the airport was at that time, I doubt he would have.
You could have contacted the Class B approach controller yourself to obtain
the clearance.

The fact that neither of those methods would have been very practical at
that point in time is immaterial. They still remain the only options for
obtaining the required clearance.

However, the question is moot, since you did not need to enter the Class B
airspace, and thus did not need to obtain a clearance to do so.

Pete

"Antoñio" wrote in message
ups.com...

You mean flight into class B for landing at BFI is not *normally*
required. In this particular case I maintain it was for safe
separation.


You can maintain that if you like, but that doesn't make it so. All it does
is cause others to question your knowledge and abilities.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
You mean flight into class B for landing at BFI is not *normally*
required. In this particular case I maintain it was for safe
separation.

You can maintain that if you like, but that doesn't make it so. All it does
is cause others to question your knowledge and abilities.

Exactly. Antonio, dude... I got out the chart and drew a line parallel
to the runway and just touching the corner of the surface area of the
class bravo. It's well over a nautical mile from the runway
centerline. If you stay inside of a mile away from the runway and fly
the appropriate downwind heading, parallel to the runway and at pattern
altitude, you'll never touch the bravo. Pete has tried to say that
about a dozen times.

In my opinion (and I suspect most others), flying downwind over a mile
from the runway it too far out even if there isn't a potential class
bravo incursion/pilot deviation waiting for you just outside that
distance. My main reasoning is twofold: I'd like to be where others
might reasonably expect to find me, and I'd like to be sure I'm within
glide range of the runway in the event of an engine failure.

-R

Rob wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
You mean flight into class B for landing at BFI is not *normally*
required. In this particular case I maintain it was for safe
separation.

You can maintain that if you like, but that doesn't make it so. All it does
is cause others to question your knowledge and abilities.

Exactly. Antonio, dude... I got out the chart and drew a line parallel
to the runway and just touching the corner of the surface area of the
class bravo. It's well over a nautical mile from the runway
centerline. If you stay inside of a mile away from the runway and fly
the appropriate downwind heading, parallel to the runway and at pattern
altitude, you'll never touch the bravo. Pete has tried to say that
about a dozen times.

Rob,

I am not sure of exactly where to put this post so I will just stick it
here and repeat it elsewhere in hopes that everyone will read it.

Due to the gallant efforts of Peter, Bob, Steve, Gary, you and a few
others I must humbly eat crow. You guys have made me see the light.

I have come to the conclusions that:

1. I flew too wide a pattern without regard to VFR references but only
paying attention to the aircraft that I had to follow. Looking back, I
suspect that I did not actually enter class B but was very close to it.
The controller warned me of that fact and I turned sufficiently early
because of that warning to avoid penetrating B airspace. This is why I
never got the infamous, "Call the tower..." message.

2. Though I am quite capable of flying a tight pattern with 14 years of
mountain flying under my belt, I got a bit lazy. I possibly turned my
downwind too wide, I think, causing me to be headed for the closest
part of B airspace from the get-go. B airspace is about 3/4 mile or so
from the end of the runway if one is too wide as I understand it.

2.5 It is quite possible to fly safely in this area and avoiding B
airspace if one is aware of the VFR landmarks. Pete is correct... So is
the unnamed famous author that wrote me privately. ;-)

3. I became stubborn and positioned myself as if a lawyer defending a
position for a client and lost the big picture. It was fun though and
I learned alot! :-)

4. As has been pointed out, I sort of expected ATC to bail me out of my
lazy piloting by blaming them for not sequencing me properly. Had I
been on the ball I would have slowed or s-turned ( but no 360 ! ) and
turned a tighter pattern.

5. I may have insulted some here. I apologize for that. Especially to
Pete for my crack about seeing a psychologist. I hope you know that I
don't think you are crazy all the time. ;-)

6. Though I am still a bit hazy on the tiny details of the legal
responsibilities of ATC in this, I am sure that they acted
appropriately within the boundaries of what was traditionally expected.


In conclusion, ( I hope!) let me say that you all have made me see
things more clearly and have helped this pilot to be a little safer. I
thank you all.

Sincerly,

Antonio