Class B busted...My problem or the controller's ?

Did your instructor teach you slow flight? Slowing down and hanging out some
flaps would have given the Arrow plenty of room without your having to
extend your downwind. That's one of the reasons maneuvering at minimum
allowable airspeed is taught.

BTW, the provision in the 7110.65 requiring controllers to coordinate
airspace transits applies to controllers who are providing radar services.
Somehow, I don't think that the BFI controller was providing radar services.


Bob Gardner

"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...


Peter Duniho wrote:
"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...
Not sure where the Duwamish is however,

If you are going to fly into Boeing Field, especially if on a regular
basis,
it behooves you to learn the major landmarks in the area. The Duwamish
River is the large waterway that runs along the west side of the airport.

I stand behoved.

looking at the Seattle
terminal, it appears you'd have to be wingtip to wingtip on the
downwind with those on final if you are to avoid class B to the south.

You greatly overestimate the size of an airplane. I am no longer based at
Boeing Field, but I was for several years. I can tell you with absolute
confidence that there is no safety hazard presented while still remaining
outside the Class B, even if you do extend your downwind leg.

Obviously wrong. You'd better check the charts again as it appears your
recall is inaccurate.

So the fact that I was under ATC instruction does not give me the
clearance?
Can you quote me a reg that backs up your statement about "...whatever
reason, including regulatory" ?

As has already been pointed out to you, you need a specific clearance into
the Class B. The only clearance that the tower controller at KBFI is
likely
to offer is a clearance to land on the runway there. That clearance is
not
a clearance to fly into the Class B.

That is where I still have a bit of confusion, Peter. If the
controlled tells me "enter a left downwind for..." and follows it with
"cleared to land; follow the Arrow ...." which is still a couple of
miles out...am I not following ATC instructions? If I am following ATC
instructions, should I not expect the two controllers ( at Bravo and
Delta ) to be communicating without me having to break in and remind
the controller, "Hey fellah...I am about to bust B...why don't you..."
?

The relevant regulation can be found in Part 91, in the section on Class B
airspace. You'll note that there's no "unless a tower controller tells
you
to extend your downwind into the Class B airspace" provision. The absence
of such a provision tells you that you need to comply with the rest of
that
regulation to enter Class B, and the rest of the regulation tells you that
you need a clearance.

The absence of a provision tells me there is an absence of a provision.
It tells me nothing positive.

And how does the absence of "such a provision" indicate that I should
deviate from ATC instructions if I am about to enter class Bravo? I was
told, "FOLLOW THE ARROW"...so I followed the Arrow. The safe timing of
this action demanded that I fly a little futher downwind.

No clearance, no entry.

Not necessarilly true in other cases--such as while on an IFR flight
plan.

It's your job as pilot in command to follow the
regulations.

I followed ATC instructions. What more can the FAA ask of me?

Your only out would be to declare an emergency (which provides
you with the right to deviate from the regulations to the extent necessary
to resolve the emergency) but a) that seems a little extreme to me, and b)
the FAA may well take issue with whether flying into the Class B was
necessary in order to resolve whatever emergency you claimed to have.

You named other outs earlier: A 360, an upwind crossover, a turn
upwind to a go around, and other "deviations" which I was not directly
told to do. To do these manuvers would have been dangerous, given the
situation.

The controllers is supposed to arrange things so that you don't wind
up
on
the same part of the runway at the same time as someone else. That's
all.
They may try to assist with other issues, but ultimately those are all
up to
you.

I think this is an oversimplification. The controllers have many
options and responsibilities that go beyond just what you have called
out.


I provided several other options that were available to you.

Yes, I know. I sure hope I never have to follow you into BFI as you
decide to do a 360 on the downwind for better spacing !

Even from a safety standpoint,
there should be no significant problem. A 360 would only be even
theoretically problematic if you had traffic following you, but even if
that
were the case, "see and avoid" provides sufficient seperation. By flying
upwind, I don't mean you have to fly the left traffic upwind leg. It
would
be perfectly fine and appropriate to turn upwind and fly over runway 31L;
essentially, it would be a short approach plus a go-around, where you
never
descend low enought to conflict with traffic on final.

I think you might be simply positioning here. You should rethink these
maneuvers. In my opinion, they do nothing to increase the safety in
congested airspace like BFI. You just don't have time to communicate
your intentions. You leave the controller with the necessity to call
you up and ask, "What are you doing?".

Keep in mind that what transpired from the time I was at the end of the
runway to turning base behind the Arrow (albeit a bit late) was about
30 seconds.

Whatever you do, it's important to tell the controller what you're doing
and
why.

You would never have been able to do that this particular day without
stepping on others and disrupting the whole flow.


Fortunately, this is all moot. It is entirely possible to extend
one's
downwind at Boeing Field without flying into the Class B airspace,

To be fair I will check out your assertions further. However, this does
not alter the fact that the controller called me up to mention the
class B airspace ahead. I would bet you a smug look that this happens
all the time there.

If you are uncomfortable with flying in tight quarters, that suggests to
me
that you are used to flying a downwind leg that is as much as a mile away
from the airport. That's pretty far away anywhere, but at KBFI that just
won't work. You need to be flying close in to the airport, and be
comfortable making short, tight turns in the pattern. If this doesn't
describe you, you sould probably spend some time with an instructor --
especially one who is familiar with KBFI -- and practice your patterns
there
until you ARE comfortable with the close quarters.

I am not "uncomfortable flying in tight quarters". I am uncomfortable
when I don't know the best way to handle a situation. Which is what my
question was about.

Your condescension is unwarranted and often characteristic of your
posting style. Perhaps you should spend some time with a
psychologist--one that is familiar with antisocial behavior-- and
practice being nice until you are comfortable in close quarters.If this
doesn't describe you...well, just ignore me. ;-)

Antonio

Bob Gardner wrote:
Did your instructor teach you slow flight? Slowing down and hanging out some
flaps would have given the Arrow plenty of room without your having to
extend your downwind. That's one of the reasons maneuvering at minimum
allowable airspeed is taught.

Slow flight would have been good had there been time. I was abeam the
end of the runway when cleared to follow the Arrow. I was in B airspace
(so it seems) around 20 seconds later.

BTW, the provision in the 7110.65 requiring controllers to coordinate
airspace transits applies to controllers who are providing radar services.
Somehow, I don't think that the BFI controller was providing radar services.

BFI has radar and is separating me from other traffic, right? That is
not technically "radar service"?

Bob Gardner

"Antoñio" wrote in message
ups.com...
Slow flight would have been good had there been time. I was abeam the
end of the runway when cleared to follow the Arrow. I was in B airspace
(so it seems) around 20 seconds later.

Where you aware, abeam the numbers, that you were approaching the Class B
airspace? If so, why not just slow down when abeam the numbers? It doesn't
take 20 seconds (or 30, which is what you wrote before) to slow an airplane
down, and of course as you are slowing, you get more time.

BFI has radar and is separating me from other traffic, right? That is
not technically "radar service"?

KBFI, as is the case at many Class D airports, has a radar display. In
almost all cases (and as far as I know, this includes KBFI), the tower
controller uses this strictly for informational purposes. They aren't
providing radar services, nor do they provide separation any more than any
tower without a radar display would (that is, they basically don't, even
though it may sound like they are sometimes).

Pete

On 29 May 2005 00:11:05 -0700, Antoñio wrote:

Slow flight would have been good had there been time. I was abeam the
end of the runway when cleared to follow the Arrow. I was in B airspace
(so it seems) around 20 seconds later.

Antonio,

Sounds to me, you may need to assess your own flying. Based on your
statement above, sounds to me, that you were 20 seconds behind the airplane
rather then ahead of the plane.

FOR ME, by the time I am abeam the numbers, unless I am asked to keep my
speed up, I am at my final approach speed of 70 knots in my Sundowner.

This allows for a shorter final at this speed and I am taking a lot less
real estate in my pattern.

Allen

A Lieberman wrote:



FOR ME, by the time I am abeam the numbers, unless I am asked to keep my
speed up, I am at my final approach speed of 70 knots in my Sundowner.


And everybody behind has to slow down too or extend downwind if flying a
faster aircraft.

On Sun, 29 May 2005 14:24:20 +0000, Arketip wrote:

And everybody behind has to slow down too or extend downwind if flying a
faster aircraft.

True, but by the time I turn base to final, I am only a 1/4 mile from the
end of the runway using the slower speed. If I go faster, my plane doesn't
like to slow down, and I end up remaining in the pattern a longer period of
time needing additional real estate to slow down.

A faster plane most likely would have to work a wider and longer pattern
then me anyway.

If that faster plane behind me keeps appropriate spacing behind me, since I
am using much less real estate in the pattern with my slower speed, by the
time I have landed, and cleared the active, he should be on final.

And most importantly, I am not going to compromise my safety to clear the
pattern sooner.

Again, if I was on an ILS, and asked to keep my speed up, no problem since
it's a straight in approach and I do want to be courteous within my safety
limits. I have done ILS approaches at 110 knots which is only 10 knots
below my cruise speed, but I do also have a very long runway to bleed off
that speed. If I felt unsafe, then I would say to the controller unable
even if it meant I had to break off the approach per controller
instructions.

For standard pattern work at an uncontrolled airport, I will not go faster
then 70 knots abeam the numbers. I work hard to get the plane hands off
stabilized before turning base and I am not going to change my
configuration to accommodate a faster plane behind me.

Allen

A Lieberman wrote:

On Sun, 29 May 2005 14:24:20 +0000, Arketip wrote:


And everybody behind has to slow down too or extend downwind if flying a
faster aircraft.


True, but by the time I turn base to final, I am only a 1/4 mile from the
end of the runway using the slower speed. If I go faster, my plane doesn't
like to slow down, and I end up remaining in the pattern a longer period of
time needing additional real estate to slow down.

A faster plane most likely would have to work a wider and longer pattern
then me anyway.

If that faster plane behind me keeps appropriate spacing behind me, since I
am using much less real estate in the pattern with my slower speed, by the
time I have landed, and cleared the active, he should be on final.

And most importantly, I am not going to compromise my safety to clear the
pattern sooner.

Again, if I was on an ILS, and asked to keep my speed up, no problem since
it's a straight in approach and I do want to be courteous within my safety
limits. I have done ILS approaches at 110 knots which is only 10 knots
below my cruise speed, but I do also have a very long runway to bleed off
that speed. If I felt unsafe, then I would say to the controller unable
even if it meant I had to break off the approach per controller
instructions.

For standard pattern work at an uncontrolled airport, I will not go faster
then 70 knots abeam the numbers. I work hard to get the plane hands off
stabilized before turning base and I am not going to change my
configuration to accommodate a faster plane behind me.

Allen

Good enough for me!

"Arketip" wrote in message
...
A Lieberman wrote:
FOR ME, by the time I am abeam the numbers, unless I am asked to keep my
speed up, I am at my final approach speed of 70 knots in my Sundowner.

And everybody behind has to slow down too or extend downwind if flying a
faster aircraft.

Tough for them. It's not a race.

"Mike W." wrote in message
...

Tough for them. It's not a race.


Right. You fly your pattern any way you want and to hell with everyone
else.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Mike W." wrote in message
...

Tough for them. It's not a race.

Right. You fly your pattern any way you want and to hell with everyone
else.
The intent is not to waste others' time or **** them off, but I'm not going
to endanger my safety for any reason. Different planes fly and land at
different speeds. Unless everyone doing touch-and-gos is flying the same
plane, with the same landing configuration, etc., somebody will eventually
have to 360 or widen the pattern or something to adjust.