Is MDHI going to make it?

Vygg wrote:

Helowriter wrote:
Hate to tell you, but the commercial 609 is still quite alive, and Bell
claims an order backlog. Bell market studies a couple of years back
projected 45% of the small tilt rotor market would be US and foreign
governments.

Whatever the origins of the Apache composite blade, going back to the
AH-64B, MSIP, etc. the technology to make the things got a chance in a
commercial development - 530F. That's how these things sometimes work,
and denying yourself a commercial avenue denies you development
opportunities that pay off later. Would Boeing Mesa have been better
just learning how to make the Apache blade from scratch today?

Flaw tolerance does indeed equate to ruggedness - the margins to
tolerate flaws caused by damage and keep flying. That is a good thing
for any helicopter - military or civil.

HW

Flaw tolerance is the ability to recover from something going wrong
(back-up systems, automatic reset, etc.). Ruggedness is the ability to
avoid it altogether (armor, maneuverability, "dropability", etc.). If
you've ever dealt with a military helicopter procurement spec, the two
are separate and defined in detail in the requirements.

Origins of the composite blade were the whole point of your argument.
The composite blades for the Apache have always been in development -
despite not having a commercial operation. The fact that the blades were
first used on a 530 (outgrowth from a military program) certainly
doesn't mean that blade development was dependent upon having a civil
use for it, first. Blade development for Apache was and is developed
from scratch - it didn't stop because of the sale to MDHI nor did it
originate with a commercial program. What development opportunities has
Boeing denied itself by not having a commercial rotary wing venture?

AH-64B?

So, Bell claims to have a backorder for the 609?

Yes, see below.

Who has bought it? Firm
orders or wish list?

The former, apparently. This list (from FlugRevue) is a bit old, but
indicative of the kind of firms/individuals who planned to buy it:

In March 2003, Bell said there were "nearly 70 advance orders” from
40 customers in 18 countries.
In July 2001, Bell had claimed 80 orders from 42
different customers in
18 countries, apparently down from the November 2000
figures of 83
aircraft from 44 customers in 23 countries. At the
Farnborough Air
Show in September 1998, Bell had put the total at 68
aircraft from 40
customers in 17 countries. Buyers identified at one
time or another a

Aero-Dienst GmbH (Germany)
Aero Gulf Service (Dubai)
AeroValls (Andorra)
Air Center Helicopters Inc. (USA): 2
Austin Jet (USA)
Bristow (UK): 2
Canadian Helicopter Corp. (Canada): 2
Don Carter
Evergreen Helicopters (USA)
Form Air (Turkey)
Helicopter Services (Norway): 2
Helitech DTY Ltd. (Australia)
Hillwood Development (Ross Perot jr., USA)
Wayne Huizenga
Lider (Brazil): 3
Loyd´s Investments (Poland)
Massachusetts Mutual Life Insurance (USA)
Mitsui (Japan): 3, announced at the Asian
Aerospace in February
1998
Greg Norman (USA)
Northern Mountain Helicopters Inc. (Canada)
Petroleum Helicopters (USA).
Petroleum Tiltrotors International (Sheikh Sultan
Mohammed Bin
Al Shaikh Mejeren, Dubai): 2
Textron Inc. (USA)
United Industries (South Korea)

IIRR, a deposit of $100,000 was required at the time the a/c made its first
flight, which was about 2 years ago.


When does the first one get delivered? Commercial,
now, not V-22.

IIRR, Certification is scheduled for the 4th Qtr of 2008 (IIRC it was
originally scheduled for 2003). Bell put the 609's development on hold for a
couple of years while they straightened out the MV-22, not for technical
reasons but because they figured that it was necessary for PR (or if you
like, confidence-building) for commercial sales, and because they needed the
cash to take care of the MV-22 and AH-1/UH-1 upgrade development.

I haven't seen anything in the press on any 609 sales.

AvLeak has covered the a/c a fair amount, as have other sources. Here's a
site which I think is fairly current:

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/ba609/

or you can go to Bell's own website.

Guy

Guy Alcala wrote:
snip

Yes, see below.


Who has bought it? Firm
orders or wish list?


The former, apparently. This list (from FlugRevue) is a bit old, but
indicative of the kind of firms/individuals who planned to buy it:

In March 2003, Bell said there were "nearly 70 advance orders” from
40 customers in 18 countries.
In July 2001, Bell had claimed 80 orders from 42
different customers in
18 countries, apparently down from the November 2000
figures of 83
aircraft from 44 customers in 23 countries. At the
Farnborough Air
Show in September 1998, Bell had put the total at 68
aircraft from 40
customers in 17 countries. Buyers identified at one
time or another a

Aero-Dienst GmbH (Germany)
Aero Gulf Service (Dubai)
AeroValls (Andorra)
Air Center Helicopters Inc. (USA): 2
Austin Jet (USA)
Bristow (UK): 2
Canadian Helicopter Corp. (Canada): 2
Don Carter
Evergreen Helicopters (USA)
Form Air (Turkey)
Helicopter Services (Norway): 2
Helitech DTY Ltd. (Australia)
Hillwood Development (Ross Perot jr., USA)
Wayne Huizenga
Lider (Brazil): 3
Loyd´s Investments (Poland)
Massachusetts Mutual Life Insurance (USA)
Mitsui (Japan): 3, announced at the Asian
Aerospace in February
1998
Greg Norman (USA)
Northern Mountain Helicopters Inc. (Canada)
Petroleum Helicopters (USA).
Petroleum Tiltrotors International (Sheikh Sultan
Mohammed Bin
Al Shaikh Mejeren, Dubai): 2
Textron Inc. (USA)
United Industries (South Korea)

IIRR, a deposit of $100,000 was required at the time the a/c made its first
flight, which was about 2 years ago.



When does the first one get delivered? Commercial,
now, not V-22.


IIRR, Certification is scheduled for the 4th Qtr of 2008 (IIRC it was
originally scheduled for 2003). Bell put the 609's development on hold for a
couple of years while they straightened out the MV-22, not for technical
reasons but because they figured that it was necessary for PR (or if you
like, confidence-building) for commercial sales, and because they needed the
cash to take care of the MV-22 and AH-1/UH-1 upgrade development.


I haven't seen anything in the press on any 609 sales.


AvLeak has covered the a/c a fair amount, as have other sources. Here's a
site which I think is fairly current:

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/ba609/

or you can go to Bell's own website.

Guy


Hmm. It'll be interesting to see how many are actually bought. Judging
from the reduction in the number of orders over the years and the amount
of the deposit, it sounds as if none of the "advanced orders" are firm
sales, yet. The deposits were just to hold the customer's place in line
- it happens all the time with commercial airline orders. They can pull
out at any time. Apparently, some already have.

I'm curious as to what Greg Norman wants with one. Status symbol? It'll
certainly top all of those movie stars and their Hummers. ;-)

Vygg

Vygg wrote:


Guy Alcala wrote:

snip

I haven't seen anything in the press on any 609 sales.


AvLeak has covered the a/c a fair amount, as have other sources. Here's a
site which I think is fairly current:

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/ba609/

or you can go to Bell's own website.

Guy


Hmm. It'll be interesting to see how many are actually bought. Judging
from the reduction in the number of orders over the years and the amount
of the deposit, it sounds as if none of the "advanced orders" are firm
sales, yet. The deposits were just to hold the customer's place in line
- it happens all the time with commercial airline orders. They can pull
out at any time. Apparently, some already have.

IIRC, there was an initial $10,000 place-holding deposit, which (I think) was
refundable. Once the a/c flew, progress payments were required starting with the
first $100,000, which were _not_ refundable (don't quote me on that amount, as I'm
working off memory here; it might have been more, but almost certainly wasn't
less). The order drop-off came at the time of the V-22's problems, in 2001 or so.
I'd imagine that those drops came in two categories; the 'gee-whiz' orders, and
the serious companies that had to make equipment upgrades/replacements on a
timeline. The value of the 609 for certain missions hasn't changed for the
serious helo transport companies, and indeed, several of them along with Bell and
the FAA are involved in writing the new Vertical Lift FAR certification
requirements. In short, they're in no doubt about the potential benefits, and
have made a realistic assessments of the risks. They know the a/c will work, the
only issue is being able to overcome customers' irrational fears based on
media-hype.

I'm curious as to what Greg Norman wants with one. Status symbol? It'll
certainly top all of those movie stars and their Hummers. ;-)

He does have a lot of business interests, so I guess having the same mobility as
the various corporations that signed up to buy a/c makes reasonable sense for
him. And it's still a lot cheaper than Travolta's collection;-)

Guy

The BA609 is flying again!

My friends as Bell sent me a message that the BA609 has resumed flight
testing today with four flights totaling about one hour total. This
puts them on track for converting to airplane mode sometime this
summer. More news should appear in the press and internet tomorrow.

Take care,

CTR