Procedure turn required?

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:53:15 GMT, "Lakeview Bill"
wrote:

I have to take issue with your statement:

Fair enough, I'm willing to learn - education is always ongoing.

But take another look at what the AIM actually says:

"A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to
perform a course reversal..."

As I read this, it is saying:

If a course reversal IS required, it must be done via a procedure turn.

If a course reversal IS NOT required, a procedure turn IS NOT required.

.It appears that the intention is to specify the METHOD THAT MUST BE USED if
a course reversal is required, not to require a procedure turn under all
circumstances...

But they specifically enumerate the conditions when procedure turns
are not required, the list being vectors to final, NoPT segment, timed
approaches, or when not authorized.

So, "pilots shall execute the entire procedure commencing at an IAF".
If the entire procedure, which therefore only starts when crossing the
IAF, requires a procedure turn because you're not covered under the
exceptions, it seems that by not executing a procedure turn (in the
case of a straight-in crossing a racetrack to the barb side would
suffice), you're not in fact flying the entire procedure as required,
you're flying it as if you got vectors to final just because you were
generally lined up on the inbound course while crossing the collocated
IAF/FAF and have elected not to fly the intermediate segment of the
approach, going right to just flying the FAF-MAP segment, right?

And now I have to take issue with myself...

This has nothing to do with nothing, but just for grins, I cranked up the
Garmin trainer and flew the KPWK (Chicago/Palwaukee) ILS 16 approach from
several different directions.

Coming from the south, the Garmin, as expected, flew the teardrop procedure
turn.

Coming from the north, flying the 160 radial toward the OBK VOR (the IAF),
when the Garmin reached the VOR, it reversed course and flew 340 outbound,
flew the teardrop procedure turn, and flew back toward OBK.

So, it would appear that, at least as far as Garmin is concerned, that the
procedure turn must be flown no matter what.

Live and learn...


"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:53:15 GMT, "Lakeview Bill"
wrote:

I have to take issue with your statement:

Fair enough, I'm willing to learn - education is always ongoing.

But take another look at what the AIM actually says:

"A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to
perform a course reversal..."

As I read this, it is saying:

If a course reversal IS required, it must be done via a procedure turn.

If a course reversal IS NOT required, a procedure turn IS NOT required.

.It appears that the intention is to specify the METHOD THAT MUST BE USED
if
a course reversal is required, not to require a procedure turn under all
circumstances...

But they specifically enumerate the conditions when procedure turns
are not required, the list being vectors to final, NoPT segment, timed
approaches, or when not authorized.

So, "pilots shall execute the entire procedure commencing at an IAF".
If the entire procedure, which therefore only starts when crossing the
IAF, requires a procedure turn because you're not covered under the
exceptions, it seems that by not executing a procedure turn (in the
case of a straight-in crossing a racetrack to the barb side would
suffice), you're not in fact flying the entire procedure as required,
you're flying it as if you got vectors to final just because you were
generally lined up on the inbound course while crossing the collocated
IAF/FAF and have elected not to fly the intermediate segment of the
approach, going right to just flying the FAF-MAP segment, right?

Lakeview Bill wrote:

And now I have to take issue with myself...

This has nothing to do with nothing, but just for grins, I cranked up the
Garmin trainer and flew the KPWK (Chicago/Palwaukee) ILS 16 approach from
several different directions.

Coming from the south, the Garmin, as expected, flew the teardrop procedure
turn.

Coming from the north, flying the 160 radial toward the OBK VOR (the IAF),
when the Garmin reached the VOR, it reversed course and flew 340 outbound,
flew the teardrop procedure turn, and flew back toward OBK.

So, it would appear that, at least as far as Garmin is concerned, that the
procedure turn must be flown no matter what.

Live and learn...

As someone who was involved in a previous life with the FAA's groping with
course reversal issues, and now a user of Garmin's fine panel mount products, my
hat is off to Garmin's implementations with a lot of this RNAV stuff...far
beyond when a course reversal is required.