TRSA and /X

AIM 3-5-6 says that participation by VFR pilots is voluntary...and for IFR
pilots, TRSA's don't even exist in Part 71.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...
Is VFR participation by a non transponder equipped aircraft
encouraged/permitted in a TRSA?

Thanks.

Something I've always wondered... why do TRSAs even exist? Seems like a
dangerous proposition to choose some airports as having the concept of
a voluntary controlled airspace? Why not a Class C (their closest
cousin as far as I can tell)?

--
Guy Elden Jr.

Bob Gardner wrote:
AIM 3-5-6 says that participation by VFR pilots is voluntary...and for IFR
pilots, TRSA's don't even exist in Part 71.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...
Is VFR participation by a non transponder equipped aircraft
encouraged/permitted in a TRSA?

Thanks.

"Guy Elden Jr" wrote in message
oups.com...
Something I've always wondered... why do TRSAs even exist? Seems like a
dangerous proposition to choose some airports as having the concept of
a voluntary controlled airspace? Why not a Class C (their closest
cousin as far as I can tell)?

They are left-over from when Class C airspace was called an ARSA. The main
difference between an ARSA and a TRSA was that the former required
participation, while the latter did not. Then, and now, the TRSA is sort of
"in-between" Class C (mandatory radar services) and Class D (no radar
services).

As for why participation is optional, well that's sort of like asking why
participation in radar services is optional in Class E airspace. Do you ask
that question? I suppose you (or someone else) might, but I don't.

The bottom line here is that TRSAs exist where there's a terminal radar
facility (approach/departure control), but where there's not enough traffic
to justify mandatory participation (as is the case for Class C, or Class B
for that matter). It's really just Class E airspace, where radar services
are being provided by a terminal controller rather than a center (enroute)
controller (that's a bit of an oversimplification too, but it's the basic
idea).

The boundaries show you where the terminal controller provides the radar
services rather than the center controller. The only difference in radar
services is who is providing them; it's still just your run-of-the-mill
Class E services, which are optional wherever you are.

I suppose you might ask why, if there's not that much traffic, there's a
terminal radar facility. Usually the answer to that question has to do with
the type of aircraft using the airspace (and usually an airport within that
airspace). But I wouldn't be surprised if the answer to that question does
vary with facility (and no, I don't know the answer for every situation).

Pete

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Guy Elden Jr" wrote in message
oups.com...

Something I've always wondered... why do TRSAs even exist? Seems like a
dangerous proposition to choose some airports as having the concept of
a voluntary controlled airspace? Why not a Class C (their closest
cousin as far as I can tell)?


They are left-over from when Class C airspace was called an ARSA.

The predate ARSA's. TRSA's existed when there were only TCA's nad the
FAA hadn't invented ARSA's.

TRSA's are NOT controlled airspace in themselves. Just wannabe radar
service zones.

The main
difference between an ARSA and a TRSA was that the former required
participation, while the latter did not. Then, and now, the TRSA is sort of
"in-between" Class C (mandatory radar services) and Class D (no radar
services).

It's not an inbetween anything. It's not a class of controlled
airspace. Just a charted area where you could get radar services
(which isn't limitted to TRSA's by the way, we have some airports
in the area with approach controls in their class D's that bear
at most a telltale R in their sectioanl data bock).

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
The predate ARSA's. TRSA's existed when there were only TCA's nad the
FAA hadn't invented ARSA's.

They both predate, and are left-over from, the relevant time periods.

TRSA's are NOT controlled airspace in themselves. Just wannabe radar
service zones.

I don't understand your statement. I've never heard of a TRSA existing in
Class G airspace. All of the ones I've seen have been in Class E airspace,
which certainly is controlled airspace.

It's not an inbetween anything.

You are welcome to that opinion. I happen to disagree. It provides a
higher level of service than that offered by most towers in Class D
airspace, and a lower level of service than that offered by radar facilities
in Class C airspace.

To me, that's exactly what "in-between" means

It's not a class of controlled airspace.

It is a region within Class E airspace where a slightly different type of
radar service is offered from that normally found in Class E airspace. I
would be amazed if there was a TRSA outside of controlled airspace.

Just a charted area where you could get radar services
(which isn't limitted to TRSA's by the way, we have some airports
in the area with approach controls in their class D's that bear
at most a telltale R in their sectioanl data bock).

I certainly don't disagree with your last sentence. That doesn't mean a
TRSA isn't in controlled airspace though.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

I don't understand your statement. I've never heard of a TRSA existing in
Class G airspace. All of the ones I've seen have been in Class E
airspace, which certainly is controlled airspace.


TRSAs exist in Class D and Class E airspace, but are not a type of
controlled airspace.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...
TRSAs exist in Class D and Class E airspace, but are not a type of
controlled airspace.

I never said they were.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:54:05 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
et::


TRSAs exist in Class D and Class E airspace, but are not a type of
controlled airspace.

So then is it correct, that if the TRSA controller issues an
instruction to you as a participatory flight, you are only obliged to
follow that instruction if you choose? Or are participating flights
required to follow TRSA controllers' instructions or cancel Stage
Three participation?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

I don't understand your statement. I've never heard of a TRSA existing in
Class G airspace. All of the ones I've seen have been in Class E
airspace, which certainly is controlled airspace.



TRSAs exist in Class D and Class E airspace, but are not a type of
controlled airspace.

TRSAs also exist in Class G airspace as well.

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

The predate ARSA's. TRSA's existed when there were only TCA's nad the
FAA hadn't invented ARSA's.


They both predate, and are left-over from, the relevant time periods.

I don't know what above means, but the original statement is still
correct. TRSA's existed long before ARSA's were "invented."

TRSA's are NOT controlled airspace in themselves. Just wannabe radar
service zones.


I don't understand your statement. I've never heard of a TRSA existing in
Class G airspace. All of the ones I've seen have been in Class E airspace,
which certainly is controlled airspace.

But they are not controlled airspace in themselves. It's entirely
analogous to the old airport traffic areas. They were NOT controlled
airspace. A TRSA is just a bunch of lines on the chart that says
"radar services available here."


You are welcome to that opinion. I happen to disagree. It provides a
higher level of service than that offered by most towers in Class D
airspace, and a lower level of service than that offered by radar facilities
in Class C airspace.

It provides different service. A TRSA provides radar service when
class D does not (generally, although there's almost always a class D
tower in the middle of a TRSA). However some class D's provide
radar services without being TRSA's. TRSA's have the side effect of
not necessarily having all the aircraft within it participate, which
makes it inferior to class D and C.


It is a region within Class E airspace where a slightly different type of
radar service is offered from that normally found in Class E airspace. I
would be amazed if there was a TRSA outside of controlled airspace.

It's not always class E.

I certainly don't disagree with your last sentence. That doesn't mean a
TRSA isn't in controlled airspace though.

It's NOT controlled airspace. There are 5 kinds of controlled airspace
in the US: A, B, C, D, and E. They do not overlap. A TRSA may overlap
controlled airspace, but it's jut another concept like a RESTRICTED AREA
etc...