TRSA and /X

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...
But they are not controlled airspace in themselves.

I never said they were. You are correcting a statement that was never made.

[...]
It provides different service. A TRSA provides radar service when
class D does not (generally, although there's almost always a class D
tower in the middle of a TRSA).

So I said.

However some class D's provide
radar services without being TRSA's.

So I said. My statement "It provides a higher level of service than that
offered by most towers in Class D airspace" implies just that, and was
intended to.

TRSA's have the side effect of
not necessarily having all the aircraft within it participate, which
makes it inferior to class D and C.

"Inferior" is in the eye of the beholder. Class D airspace without radar
provides NO separation services. A TRSA provides better separation services
than any non-radar Class D.

It's not always class E.

It's always within controlled airspace, and the only exception to the Class
E is when it intersects with Class D. None of that contradicts what I wrote
earlier.

It's NOT controlled airspace.

Again (since you seem to be having a hard time comprehending this): I never
said it was.

Pete

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...

It provides different service. A TRSA provides radar service when
class D does not (generally, although there's almost always a class D
tower in the middle of a TRSA).


Do you know of a TRSA which does not have Class D airspace in the middle?



However some class D's provide
radar services without being TRSA's. TRSA's have the side effect of
not necessarily having all the aircraft within it participate, which
makes it inferior to class D and C.


But all of the aircraft in the Class D portion of the TRSA are
participating, just as they are in Class C and other Class D airspace.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

It's not an inbetween anything. It's not a class of controlled airspace.

They're not a class of controlled airspace, that's certainly true, but TRSA
services are definitely in-between Basic Radar services and Class C
services.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

They are left-over from when Class C airspace was called an ARSA.


Actually, they're left over from an even earlier time.



The main difference between an ARSA and a TRSA was that the former
required participation, while the latter did not. Then, and now, the TRSA
is sort of "in-between" Class C (mandatory radar services) and Class D
(no radar services).


TRSAs provide a service in-between Class C service and Basic Radar service.
There are some terminal radar facilities that do not have Class B or Class C
airspace and are not TRSAs, these facilities provide Basic Radar service.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?R22812C3B



The bottom line here is that TRSAs exist where there's a terminal radar
facility (approach/departure control), but where there's not enough
traffic to justify mandatory participation (as is the case for Class C, or
Class B for that matter).


But TRSAs do not exist at all such locations. Facilities that provide Basic
Radar service are identified on sectional charts by a small blue circle with
an R in it near the airport name.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?F3E722C3B



It's really just Class E airspace, where radar
services are being provided by a terminal controller rather than a center
(enroute) controller (that's a bit of an oversimplification too, but it's
the basic idea).


It's Class D and Class E airspace.



The boundaries show you where the terminal controller provides the radar
services rather than the center controller. The only difference in radar
services is who is providing them; it's still just your run-of-the-mill
Class E services, which are optional wherever you are.


That's not correct. The charted TRSA boundary is well within the
center/approach boundary. The terminal facility provides services on both
sides of the TRSA boundary, probably by the same controller as well.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but according to the AIM, TRSAs provide
separation between participating VFR aircraft. In class C airspace, there
is only separation between VFR & IFR aircraft. The AIM makes it sound like
TRSAs offer participating aircraft a higher level of separation services
than class C radar services.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

They are left-over from when Class C airspace was called an ARSA.


Actually, they're left over from an even earlier time.



The main difference between an ARSA and a TRSA was that the former
required participation, while the latter did not. Then, and now, the
TRSA
is sort of "in-between" Class C (mandatory radar services) and Class D
(no radar services).


TRSAs provide a service in-between Class C service and Basic Radar
service.
There are some terminal radar facilities that do not have Class B or Class
C
airspace and are not TRSAs, these facilities provide Basic Radar service.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?R22812C3B



The bottom line here is that TRSAs exist where there's a terminal radar
facility (approach/departure control), but where there's not enough
traffic to justify mandatory participation (as is the case for Class C,
or
Class B for that matter).


But TRSAs do not exist at all such locations. Facilities that provide
Basic
Radar service are identified on sectional charts by a small blue circle
with
an R in it near the airport name.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?F3E722C3B



It's really just Class E airspace, where radar
services are being provided by a terminal controller rather than a center
(enroute) controller (that's a bit of an oversimplification too, but it's
the basic idea).


It's Class D and Class E airspace.



The boundaries show you where the terminal controller provides the radar
services rather than the center controller. The only difference in radar
services is who is providing them; it's still just your run-of-the-mill
Class E services, which are optional wherever you are.


That's not correct. The charted TRSA boundary is well within the
center/approach boundary. The terminal facility provides services on both
sides of the TRSA boundary, probably by the same controller as well.

"Brad Zeigler" wrote in message
...

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but according to the AIM, TRSAs provide
separation between participating VFR aircraft. In class C airspace, there
is only separation between VFR & IFR aircraft. The AIM makes it sound
like TRSAs offer participating aircraft a higher level of separation
services than class C radar services.


I suppose that depends on what you consider a higher level of separation
services to be. In Class C airspace IFR aircraft are separated from all
other aircraft, but in TRSAs they're only separated from other participating
aircraft.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Brad Zeigler" wrote in message
...

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but according to the AIM, TRSAs provide
separation between participating VFR aircraft. In class C airspace,
there is only separation between VFR & IFR aircraft. The AIM makes it
sound like TRSAs offer participating aircraft a higher level of
separation services than class C radar services.


I suppose that depends on what you consider a higher level of separation
services to be. In Class C airspace IFR aircraft are separated from all
other aircraft, but in TRSAs they're only separated from other
participating aircraft.

True. I was thinking along the lines of VFR to VFR separation. Manditory
participation in class C doesn't get you that...only Class B. It's
interesting that TRSAs offer VFR to VFR separation, even if only for those
who wish to play along. Perhaps this is an attribute of TRSAs that
differentiate themselves from Class Ds with approach radar services.

The explanation is in the AIM reference.

Bob

"Guy Elden Jr" wrote in message
oups.com...
Something I've always wondered... why do TRSAs even exist? Seems like a
dangerous proposition to choose some airports as having the concept of
a voluntary controlled airspace? Why not a Class C (their closest
cousin as far as I can tell)?

--
Guy Elden Jr.

Bob Gardner wrote:
AIM 3-5-6 says that participation by VFR pilots is voluntary...and for
IFR
pilots, TRSA's don't even exist in Part 71.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...
Is VFR participation by a non transponder equipped aircraft
encouraged/permitted in a TRSA?

Thanks.

Yea.. but the simplified explanation is:

A TRSA is an approach control type radar service into an area that is
not serving a Class C or Class B field. As others have said, it is
non-regulatory. The airspace within a TRSA is either Class D or Class E.
I have yet to see a TRSA encompass class G airspace (other than the
presumption that ground to 700 feet is included) but from a logical
standpoint it seems counterintuitive to provide "control" to traffic in
"uncontrolled" airspace.

The difference between center and approach class radars is significant:
closer in vectors to final, faster update rates, etc.

While participation by VFR's within TRSA's are voluntary, my "local"
TRSA at Beaumont, TX (KBPT) advises aircraft inbound to KBPT to contact
approach first, who will then hand you off to the tower... so by
practice, going into the primary airport at THAT TRSA is defacto a
mandatory participation

Dave Staten

Bob Gardner wrote:
The explanation is in the AIM reference.

Bob

"Guy Elden Jr" wrote in message
oups.com...

Something I've always wondered... why do TRSAs even exist? Seems like a
dangerous proposition to choose some airports as having the concept of
a voluntary controlled airspace? Why not a Class C (their closest
cousin as far as I can tell)?

--
Guy Elden Jr.

Bob Gardner wrote:

AIM 3-5-6 says that participation by VFR pilots is voluntary...and for
IFR
pilots, TRSA's don't even exist in Part 71.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...

Is VFR participation by a non transponder equipped aircraft
encouraged/permitted in a TRSA?

Thanks.

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...

I have yet to see a TRSA encompass class G airspace (other than the
presumption that ground to 700 feet is included) but from a logical
standpoint it seems counterintuitive to provide "control" to traffic in
"uncontrolled" airspace.


The only place TRSAs reach the surface is within the core Class D surface
area. The outer boundary of a TRSA does not extend below the base altitude
of Class E airspace.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B843C3B