VFR Flight Following -- What's going on here?

"Chris G." nospam@noemail wrote in message
eenews.net...

The local FSDO helped me quite a bit in finding the references I need.
Look in FAA Order 7110.65 Para. 10-2-5 (2b). I've quoted it for your
convenience and the link is provided. It references Jay's specific
situation.
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp10/atc1002.html#10-2-5


That reference was posted in this thread yesterday.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

I have never seen any documentation of this claim, for VFR aircraft. My
understanding is that the scenario in this thread was motivated solely at
the discretion of the controller, that there is no automatic search and
rescue for abnormally terminated flight following, and that only a VFR
flight plan guarantees a search and rescue attempt for missing VFR
flights.

Can you provide a reference to something that supports the idea that
airplanes getting VFR flight following are given automatic search and
rescue if they somehow are "lost" from the controller (either radio or
radar contact lost)?


http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp10/atc1002.html#10-2-5

See subparagraph b.

He didn't get it quite right. ATC must initiate a search when there is an
UNEXPECTED loss of radar contact AND radio communications. If the losses
occur in an area where it's normal to lose them ATC isn't required to do
anything.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp10/atc1002.html#10-2-5

See subparagraph b.

He didn't get it quite right. ATC must initiate a search when there is an
UNEXPECTED loss of radar contact AND radio communications. If the losses
occur in an area where it's normal to lose them ATC isn't required to do
anything.

Thanks. Interesting. I assume that somewhere buried in the chain of
"inform the/alert the..." there's someone who actually starts the search and
rescue proceedings?

Given that both radar contact and radio communications must be lost, and
given that losing both unexpectedly is sufficient to cause an emergency to
be assumed, what is the maximum amount of time between the two events that
can happen while still defining an emergency?

That is, suppose radio communications are ceased but radar contact is still
present. Suppose further that the pilot eventually lands somewhere, at some
point descending low enough to no longer be on radar. It seems obvious to
me that if the pilot flies out of the controller's sector, or some lengthy
period of time goes by (30 minutes? 60 minutes?), that the controller might
be able to assume there's no emergency, while near-simultaneous loss of
radio and radar would constitute an emergency.

Somewhere in between there must be a point where the assumed emergency is no
longer an assumed emergency. Is that point well-defined, or does the
controller make a judgment call?

Finally, what constitutes radar contact? Is a primary return sufficient?
What about a 1200 transponder return? If a 1200 transponder return is
sufficient, what happens if THAT radar contact is lost within the time limit
I asked about above? Can the controller assume that the pilot switching
from his assigned code to 1200 has terminated flight following? Does the
switch to 1200 make any loss of radio communications and radar contact
"expected", or could the controller be obligated to declare an emergency
even if the transponder has been set to 1200 unexpectedly and then radar
contact is lost altogether?

Pete

Peter Duniho wrote:



I have never seen any documentation of this claim, for VFR aircraft.

Nope, if you are unexpectedly lost then ATC will start a search immediatley.

"Chris G." nospam@noemail wrote in message
eenews.net...

The way the SAR system works is that once the FAA has radar contact with
you and are providing radar services, they will continue to do so unless
they are unable (due to lack of radar coverage) or you cancel them. If
you fall below their radar coverage while utilizing their services, then
they begin the SAR process.


That's not quite correct. They initiate SAR when there is UNEXPECTED loss
of radar contact and radio communications.

Jay,

You got good service from a controller who got worried about you.

Now, quit messing around; with that very capable airplane and all the
flying you do, get your instrument rating. It'll also help your VFR
travel and dealing with ATC. Besides, the workload IFR is much, much
less than VFR when you're dealing with weather such as you had and also
having to figure out airspace and so forth.

I've had a controller get hold of a small airport when I had a total
electrical failure on an IFR flight plan. In and out of the clouds,
saw an airport below me, spiraled down and landed. As I parked, the
airport manager came out to make sure I was okay and said CVG approach
had called and was concerned. I called the controller back, told him
what was going on and thanked him for making the call to have someone
looking out for me. It was a very nice feeling on an afternoon when
the airplane was in the midst of what turned out to be a reaction to a
stupid wiring job done by someone years before that was finally coming
due as insulation was scraping off of poorly routed wires. (In fact,
it was the only good thing that happened that afternoon-figuring out
the problem and repairing it wasn't cheap.)

Warmest regards,
Rick

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ps.com...
Now that I think about it, I suppose we could have asked Flight Watch
to notify Chicago Center when we could no longer hear them, but frankly
it never dawned on me that Chicago really cared that much about what
happened outside of their Class B airspace.

First, Chicago Center doesn't give a crap what happens in the Chicago
Class B.

Ah, true enough. I have mistakenly been using the terms "Approach" and
"Center" interchangeably in this thread.

"Chicago Center" is always cooperative and helpful, and will
unfailingly provide flight following all the way to Iowa City (if
we're high enough, which we rarely are) if requested.

"Chicago Approach" is the ATC facility in question here. They are the
ones who called the Rantoul airport manager, and they are the ones who
usually will not provide VFR flight following.

Which is why I was (and am) so surprised that they actually took the
time to call Rantoul when we lost radio contact with them. They are
usually not so helpful.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City



Jay, you've got the plane and you travel in it enough.

Break down and get your IFR ticket.


GigG

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ps.com...

Ah, true enough. I have mistakenly been using the terms "Approach" and
"Center" interchangeably in this thread.

"Chicago Center" is always cooperative and helpful, and will
unfailingly provide flight following all the way to Iowa City (if
we're high enough, which we rarely are) if requested.

"Chicago Approach" is the ATC facility in question here. They are the
ones who called the Rantoul airport manager, and they are the ones who
usually will not provide VFR flight following.

Which is why I was (and am) so surprised that they actually took the
time to call Rantoul when we lost radio contact with them. They are
usually not so helpful.


Ehh? Rantoul is well outside Chicago Approach airspace. Rantoul is in
Champaign Approach airspace which is assumed by Chicago Center when
Champaign closes for the night.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...

I've had radar facilities chase me down after I've lost comms with them
during VFR FF. They want to make sure they didn't lose you and something
bad happened to you (like you crashed). Just consider it
an extra service.


It's not necessarily an extra service. If radio and radar contact is lost
in an area where ATC would expect to have both, then ATC is supposed to
chase you down.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp10/atc1002.html#10-2-5

Ron Natalie wrote:


I've had radar facilities chase me down after I've lost comms with them
during VFR FF. They want to make sure they didn't lose you and
something bad happened to you (like you crashed). Just consider it
an extra service.

It is a required service. If they lose you unexpectedly ATC is required
to start a search. In Jay's case he was cruising merrily along, asked
to switch to Flight Watch and then disappeared. Meanwhile Center is
watching Jay descend and can't get a hold of him. Pretty soon he drops
off radar. So call the most likely spot, the airport. If the manager
wouldn't have found him then SAR would have been started.