Decommissioning of TIS stations

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
news:1119360496.186398@sj-nntpcache-3...

Isn't the source of the traffic information the same for both TIS (mode-S)
and TIS-B (the traffic part of ADS-B)?

Yes and no.

TIS is entirely Mode S based. It uses Mode S as a source to identify the
traffic near you and Mode S datalink service to uplink the data to your
aircraft.

TIS-B uses both Mode S and UAT. Source data may be either ADS-B data or
Mode S surveillance data. The Mode S data is converted to ADS-B format
(lat, lon, alt, ID) by the ground system. Since very few people are ADS-B
equipped, most of the TIS-B data being broadcast is converted Mode S
surveillance.

What is it that's being decommissioned? Is it the mode-S (which TIS-B
doesn't use) transmitters? ...or is the data being cut off at the source?


I'm assuming that the 'decommissioning' of TIS is being driven by bean
counters with the maintenance budget. Either that or it's a case of a 'this
program is just too cheap, it can't be any good' mentality at the FAA.
After all, it cost less than $2.5M to put in the system nationwide. It's
not much more than a $10K workstation with a pretty much autonomous
software application plugged into the Mode S ground station.

Gerry

Gerry,

TIS is entirely Mode S based. It uses Mode S as a source to identify the
traffic near you and Mode S datalink service to uplink the data to your
aircraft.


Uhm, not quite, AFAIK. It does use Mode S datalink for the uplink, but all
traffic information is derived from center radar data. Mode C and A targets
are reported just as Mode S targets are.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote:
Gerry,


TIS is entirely Mode S based. It uses Mode S as a source to identify the
traffic near you and Mode S datalink service to uplink the data to your
aircraft.



Uhm, not quite, AFAIK. It does use Mode S datalink for the uplink, but all
traffic information is derived from center radar data.

None of the info is derived from the Center. Center doesn't have mode S
equipment. Only approach controls have mode S. A center may use an
approach controls mode S radar, that happens with Salt Lake and our
radar here at Billings.

You're both wrong. There are about 100 "terminal" Mode S radars used by
TRACON's and 25 "enroute" Mode S radars used by the centers. TIS is a
software modification to the terminal Mode S radars only to allow them
to uplink traffic over the Mode S datalink that the radars have. They
only use the surveillance within the individual sensor - no inputs from
other radars.

The enroute radars were not modified due to the low scan rate - only
every 12 seconds vs 4.7 seconds for the terminal radars.

And the shutting down of some Mode S sites has to do with replacement by
the new ASR-11 radar. It's a digital monopulse radar from Raytheon, but
not equipped with Mode S. These radars are required for the new STARS
automation (controller display) system going into some TRACONs.

Newps wrote:


Thomas Borchert wrote:

Gerry,


TIS is entirely Mode S based. It uses Mode S as a source to identify
the traffic near you and Mode S datalink service to uplink the data
to your aircraft.



Uhm, not quite, AFAIK. It does use Mode S datalink for the uplink, but
all traffic information is derived from center radar data.


None of the info is derived from the Center. Center doesn't have mode S
equipment. Only approach controls have mode S. A center may use an
approach controls mode S radar, that happens with Salt Lake and our
radar here at Billings.

Tailwind wrote:


And the shutting down of some Mode S sites has to do with replacement by
the new ASR-11 radar. It's a digital monopulse radar from Raytheon, but
not equipped with Mode S. These radars are required for the new STARS
automation (controller display) system going into some TRACONs.

We have an ASR-11 and our mode S and TIS is fully functioning.

Tailwind wrote:

And the shutting down of some Mode S sites has to do with replacement by
the new ASR-11 radar. It's a digital monopulse radar from Raytheon, but
not equipped with Mode S. These radars are required for the new STARS
automation (controller display) system going into some TRACONs.

(sorry Newps, hopping off your post to reply to this one, as his post is
missing from my news server.)

Tailwind, I fly out of Syracuse, NY, a class C airport that was one of the
first STARS installations. TIS is fully functional here.

--
Peter
























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Newps wrote:
We have an ASR-11 and our mode S and TIS is fully functioning.

Interesting. According to my avionics rep, who spoke today with his
Garmin rep:

= I just had a long talk with my Garmin rep. Here is what they have
= been told. The FAA is upgrading some of the ATC facility terminal
= radar from ARTS8 to ARTS11 systems (model numbers may be wrong,
= I think that is what he said). In any event, when the older ARTS8
= were being speced, the FAA wrote into the spec the ARTS8 must be
= TIS compliant. The contactor building the ARTS8 designed TIS into
= the system, and all was right with the world....

= When the new ARTS11 spec was written the FAA either forgot to add
= the TIS requirement, or thought no one was using it and omitted
= it intentionally. So you had the ARTS11 system designed without
= the TIS feature. So.... As the older systems were replaced by
= the newer systems, TIS got lost.

= My Garmin rep said the majority (of the 22 lost TIS sites) were
= the North West USA, one in Minnesota (or Michigan), one in Maine.
= He did not remember any in our area [Ed Note: NY/NJ/PA]. I asked
= him if this was the impending death of TIS, and he did not know.
= He did say the FAA was working off some bad data that was showing
= almost no one was using TIS. Garmin did compile data and sent
= to them on 330 sales (about 10k 330's to date). So we will see...

So, there you have it. If you say you have an ARTS11 system and TIS is
functioning, someone is lying about the reason behind the
decomissioning. I call for a hanging. All in favor?

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

"Doug Vetter" wrote in message
...
Newps wrote:
We have an ASR-11 and our mode S and TIS is fully functioning.

Interesting. According to my avionics rep, who spoke today with his
Garmin rep:

= My Garmin rep said the majority (of the 22 lost TIS sites) were
= the North West USA, one in Minnesota (or Michigan), one in Maine.
= He did not remember any in our area [Ed Note: NY/NJ/PA]. I asked
= him if this was the impending death of TIS, and he did not know.
= He did say the FAA was working off some bad data that was showing
= almost no one was using TIS. Garmin did compile data and sent
= to them on 330 sales (about 10k 330's to date). So we will see...

So, there you have it. If you say you have an ARTS11 system and TIS is
functioning, someone is lying about the reason behind the
decomissioning. I call for a hanging. All in favor?

Normally I'd be in favor (use piano wire), but because the Billings site is
operational doesn't mean others were not decommissioned.

In article hGlue.2105$HU.168@trnddc03, Tailwind
wrote:

And the shutting down of some Mode S sites has to do with replacement by
the new ASR-11 radar. It's a digital monopulse radar from Raytheon, but
not equipped with Mode S. These radars are required for the new STARS
automation (controller display) system going into some TRACONs.

one correction: STARS does not require an ASR-11.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

Bob Noel wrote:

Tailwind
wrote:

And the shutting down of some Mode S sites has to do with replacement by
the new ASR-11 radar. It's a digital monopulse radar from Raytheon, but
not equipped with Mode S. These radars are required for the new STARS
automation (controller display) system going into some TRACONs.

one correction: STARS does not require an ASR-11.

As confirmed by the approach facility at Syracuse, NY, a class C airport
that was one of the first STARs installations that also has a fully
operating TIS.

--
Peter
























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