New Garmin 396

In article 1120931190.ee355d9085f8aa3f59c909d62c3c862e@teran ews,
"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
That is the point... there are only "less cables" with a PDA setup if you
ignore the presence and power needs and size of the XM receiver. I suppose
your rationale does indeed make sense if you use the PDA weather system only
in one plane (presumably which you own) and if you somehow run a permanent
power cable to the XM receiver (which is certainly doable though awkward).

For the market of renter pilots -- which is quite substantial -- a 396 is
much more convenient logistically than a PDA solution.

For a portable weather system--no question about it. However, if you're
an aircraft owner and never move the weather system, it's a moot point.
There's nothing difficult about mounting the XM receiver remotely and
providing power to it. It becomes more difficult if you plan to use it
as a "portable" weather system.




on top of terrain. Additionally the portable GPS can be configured for more
information fields than can fit on just a 430/530, i.e. more ways to depict
ETA, bearing, vertical nav info, etc., etc. The Garmin portable GPS units
also have vertical navigation abilities superior to any PDA, which can be
quite helpful in an emergency. And finally in the event of a total
electrical failure the portable GPS already has the current flight planned
route in its memory with no extra work required of the pilot, making the
electrical failure almost a non-event.

None of this is relevant for renter pilots. If I'm considering a 396
primarily for weather, why wouldn't I use a small TabletPC, which has a
superior display and orientation compared with the 396, and WxWorx on
Wings software, which provides a superior weather display? Throw a
small Bluetooth GPS on the glare shield and you can see where you are in
relation to the weather. Entering a flight plan into a Tablet or PDA
isn't a big deal, and I probably wouldn't hesitate to use the Tablet or
PDA for primary enroute navigation if I had a panel mount that wasn't
doing anything other than navigation anyway.

As for vertical navigation abilities, I'm not exactly sure what you're
referring to that would make a Garmin handheld "superior." I would
think that all of the data relevant for VNAV would be provided by the
GPS, so if I'm using a PDA or TabletPC slaved to a Garmin GPS, I'm not
sure how that would be much different for VNAV guidance than using a
Garmin portable--unless you're referring to specific software features
in the Garmin.

I'm not saying there aren't advantages to the Garmin portables, but if I
had an IFR panel mount, I'm not sure that I'd run out and drop $2500 on
a Garmin portable just so that it can sync my flight plan. If I was a
renter pilot, the 396 would be an ideal system due to its easy
portability. If I was an owner serious about certified weather uplink
and features not available on the 430/530, I think I'd investigate
selling the 430/530 and buying another certified system that can better
serve my needs.

That all being said, if I was considering the purchase of a portable
GPS/weather system today, irrespective of what's in my panel, I would
have to seriously consider the 396--I might even run out and buy it.
However, I resisted buying the 296 and its predecessors due to the lousy
screens and poor "landscape" screen orientation. I still have my GPSMAP
195, and it is still a fantastic GPS after all these years, but it has
no obstacles, terrain, or weather capability, so it has been relegated
to storage.



JKG

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote

For a portable weather system--no question about it. However, if you're
an aircraft owner and never move the weather system, it's a moot point.

Less significant, yes. Moot, no. It is still a piece of equipment which
needs either a quasi-permanent power connection to ship's power or else
regular recharging or replacing of batteries.

None of this is relevant for renter pilots. If I'm considering a 396
primarily for weather, why wouldn't I use a small TabletPC, which has a
superior display and orientation compared with the 396, and WxWorx on
Wings software, which provides a superior weather display? Throw a
small Bluetooth GPS on the glare shield and you can see where you are in

It is relevant to renter pilots in particular because it is by far the
easiest way to put both GPS navigation and weather in a rental airplane.
Sure you can set up an XM receiver, Bluetooth GPS, and PDA whenever you rent
a plane, but that is a lot more work then plugging in a 396

relation to the weather. Entering a flight plan into a Tablet or PDA
isn't a big deal

Yes it is if you are talking about an IFR situation when you need to enter
flight plan or navaid info into panel-mount IFR equipment and then duplicate
it in a portable GPS and then reprogram both when you receive changes in
routings or approach clearances enroute. For VFR flight this is not a huge
issue; for IFR flight the convenience from the crossfed data is HUGE.

and I probably wouldn't hesitate to use the Tablet or
PDA for primary enroute navigation if I had a panel mount that wasn't
doing anything other than navigation anyway.

That is fine for VFR but not IFR.


sure how that would be much different for VNAV guidance than using a
Garmin portable--unless you're referring to specific software features
in the Garmin.

Yes, I am referring to the "Vertical Speed to Target" feature of the Garmin
portables (and some Lowrance units as well). This is a highly desirable
feature for executing a deadstick landing when VFR or especially IFR or at
night.


I'm not saying there aren't advantages to the Garmin portables, but if I
had an IFR panel mount, I'm not sure that I'd run out and drop $2500 on
a Garmin portable just so that it can sync my flight plan.

If you had a Garmin 430 or 530 in your panel, it would be downright silly
not to add a Garmin portable GPS given the advantages it offers.. it could
be any portable model since the 195. Once it is a given that you add a
Garmin portable, then it does not make much sense to have a Garmin portable
GPS for backup nav and a separate portable weather system. The realistic
options at that point are either a Garmin 396 or else an older Garmin
portable GPS plus panel-mount weather.


renter pilot, the 396 would be an ideal system due to its easy
portability. If I was an owner serious about certified weather uplink
and features not available on the 430/530, I think I'd investigate
selling the 430/530 and buying another certified system that can better
serve my needs.

There is no such thing as certified weather uplink -- it is easier panel or
portable.

Weather on the 430/530 themselves are marginal.

The apparent best IFR panel weather datalink options at this point are
either a Garmin 430/530 coupled to panel-mount EX500 multi-function display
for weather (an expensive option) or else a Garmin 430 coupled to a 396
portable for weather and terrain.

no obstacles, terrain, or weather capability, so it has been relegated
to storage.

That is one of the key points... the terrain feature of the 296 is
stupendous and ought to be considered the Product of the Year -- in many
ways its terrain implementation is superior to that on much more expensive
panel solutions such as an MX20 or an EX500.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

In article 1120946772.bdcbdac7353f6e551facbb6a46d64e8a@teran ews,
"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
For a portable weather system--no question about it. However, if you're
an aircraft owner and never move the weather system, it's a moot point.

Less significant, yes. Moot, no. It is still a piece of equipment which
needs either a quasi-permanent power connection to ship's power or else
regular recharging or replacing of batteries.

How is this any different than the Garmin 396? As far as I see it, it
isn't much different from the pilot's perspective. It's fairly painless
to practice some basic cable management and power becomes a non-issue.


It is relevant to renter pilots in particular because it is by far the
easiest way to put both GPS navigation and weather in a rental airplane.
Sure you can set up an XM receiver, Bluetooth GPS, and PDA whenever you rent
a plane, but that is a lot more work then plugging in a 396.

I'm not disputing that, but in this section, I was responding to your
comments regarding integration with the 430/530. I doubt that many
airplanes in the rental fleet will have the interface available for that
type of integration.



Yes it is if you are talking about an IFR situation when you need to enter
flight plan or navaid info into panel-mount IFR equipment and then duplicate
it in a portable GPS and then reprogram both when you receive changes in
routings or approach clearances enroute. For VFR flight this is not a huge
issue; for IFR flight the convenience from the crossfed data is HUGE.

In my experience, entering a flight plan in a PDA or TabletPC is easier
than with the Garmin units. I have over 20 hours of IFR flight on the
PDA system, and I've had to change flight plans, but it's no big deal
because I have a keyboard at my fingertips. Would it be nice to do it
once a push a button, sure, but I doubt that most users of the 396 will
interface it with a 430/530.



and I probably wouldn't hesitate to use the Tablet or
PDA for primary enroute navigation if I had a panel mount that wasn't
doing anything other than navigation anyway.

That is fine for VFR but not IFR.

Not sure why it isn't fine for IFR. It's perfectly safe and it's legal
enroute if you are in a radar environment.



Yes, I am referring to the "Vertical Speed to Target" feature of the Garmin
portables (and some Lowrance units as well). This is a highly desirable
feature for executing a deadstick landing when VFR or especially IFR or at
night.

Not sure how this works exactly, but there are software packages that
offer similar types of emergency glide features for other systems.


renter pilot, the 396 would be an ideal system due to its easy
portability. If I was an owner serious about certified weather uplink
and features not available on the 430/530, I think I'd investigate
selling the 430/530 and buying another certified system that can better
serve my needs.

There is no such thing as certified weather uplink -- it is easier panel or
portable.

I was referring to weather uplink to a certified panel-mount GPS.



That is one of the key points... the terrain feature of the 296 is
stupendous and ought to be considered the Product of the Year -- in many
ways its terrain implementation is superior to that on much more expensive
panel solutions such as an MX20 or an EX500.


Maybe, but I still contend that the landscape display orientation of the
296/396 and some units before them is less-than-ideal. The display
resolution itself really isn't that nice either. Other software vendors
have better terrain features, but I guess some folks just like to see
"Garmin" on their navigation equipment.


I'm not arguing that the 396 is a bad unit; quite to the contrary, it
looks like a great unit. I just don't think that it is going to "kill
off" all of the PDA/TabletPC competitors like some folks seem to
suggest. For example, WxWorx appeals to a wide audience and provides
capability that the 396 can't match, as does Control Vision's product.
There are plenty of others out there who may find their systems a hard
sell over the 396, though.



JKG

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

I'm not arguing that the 396 is a bad unit; quite to the contrary, it
looks like a great unit. I just don't think that it is going to "kill
off" all of the PDA/TabletPC competitors like some folks seem to
suggest. For example, WxWorx appeals to a wide audience and provides
capability that the 396 can't match, as does Control Vision's product.
There are plenty of others out there who may find their systems a hard
sell over the 396, though.

Not trying to pick sides or gang up on anyone, but I agree with most
every point Richard Kaplan made in your discussion. And I also agree
the impact on the PDA weather/GPS market is going to be, NO DOUBT ABOUT
IT, HUGE! This is the box GA pilots want. I'd argue that the majority
of pilots, by far, are not techie gearheads who want to futz with
configuration issues, deal with Bluetooth, a stylus, a rat's nest of
wires, etc. They want something that works, PERIOD, and that is why
it's so desirable to see "Garmin" on the box.

I've avoided CV's products for all of the issues Richard mentioned, and
I am excited to be getting my hands on a 396 just as soon as I can.
I've heard more than a few comments to this effect, including current
and former CV customers looking to make the switch. Garmin's going to
make a few (big) waves, no doubt.

-Ryan

In article ,
Ryan Ferguson wrote:
Not trying to pick sides or gang up on anyone, but I agree with most
every point Richard Kaplan made in your discussion. And I also agree
the impact on the PDA weather/GPS market is going to be, NO DOUBT ABOUT
IT, HUGE! This is the box GA pilots want. I'd argue that the majority
of pilots, by far, are not techie gearheads who want to futz with
configuration issues, deal with Bluetooth, a stylus, a rat's nest of
wires, etc. They want something that works, PERIOD, and that is why
it's so desirable to see "Garmin" on the box.

I am amazed that folks are predicting that the 396 is going to be the
holy grail of handhelds when, to my knowledge, no one so far in this
thread has touched one.

Secondly, the configuration issues that Richard speaks of are overblown
in my experience. He has continued to reiterate his own points, which
is fine, but some of them I've refuted. I do have a PDA system with XM
weather and I NEVER have to touch Bluetooth configuration or "manage"
the Bluetooth connections. Things may be different on a TabletPC, or
for those trying to do other things with their PDAs, but out of the box
they seem pretty much plug-and-play to me. They obviously aren't as
integrated as the 396, but that has both advantages and disadvantages.
Many of the XM problems reported by CV and WxWorx on Wings users seem
related to XM, so there is no guarantee that Garmin's users won't
experience them too.

The entire discussion began when Richard suggested that the 396 would
have less wires running to it than a PDA. With a Bluetooth capable PDA,
a Bluetooth GPS, and Bluetooth XM receiver, that assertion is false. I
simply stated that and then things started to snowball.

I am not anti-Garmin. I do like Garmin's products, and I presently own
and use two Garmin GPS units regularly. However, contrary to popular
belief, Garmin's products are computers and their software does have
bugs. Also, before I'm ready to declare that the 396 solves world
hunger, I'd like to see it or at least hear from those who have seen it
and used it. I suspect that we will have many hands-on reports posted
in a couple of weeks, after Oshkosh.



I've avoided CV's products for all of the issues Richard mentioned, and
I am excited to be getting my hands on a 396 just as soon as I can.
I've heard more than a few comments to this effect, including current
and former CV customers looking to make the switch. Garmin's going to
make a few (big) waves, no doubt.

What issues did Rich mention about CV's products? In fact, I didn't see
any negative comments or issues reported about CV's products in this
thread. What am I missing?



JKG

In article ,
Jonathan Goodish wrote:
The entire discussion began when Richard suggested that the 396 would
have less wires running to it than a PDA. With a Bluetooth capable PDA,
a Bluetooth GPS, and Bluetooth XM receiver, that assertion is false. I
simply stated that and then things started to snowball.

I do need to be fair by saying that I value Richard Kaplan's opinion
highly, even when I don't agree with it. In this case, it is my opinion
that Richard and others are relatively caught up in the hype surrounding
a new product that looks very promising. I will be very interested to
hear user reports once they start coming in, but until then, I'd rather
not try to sell a product that hasn't shipped yet.



JKG

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote:
I will be very interested to
hear user reports once they start coming in, but until then, I'd
rather
not try to sell a product that hasn't shipped yet.

I agree. This appears to be exactly the GPS/wx solution I've been
looking for, but at $2,495 list it's too pricey to tempt me until I've
heard what the early adopters say.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message

I will be very interested to
hear user reports once they start coming in, but until then, I'd rather
not try to sell a product that hasn't shipped yet.

That is an excellent point. It could well be that when it arrives the smart
antenna is too big to be practical or that the screen is to small to view
the wealth of available information.

On the other hand, Garmin used portable GPS receivers have always held their
value well on the used market. A great feature of portable avionics is that
if you do not like them there is no cost to uninstall them from your
airplane. The risk is not too great to buy a 396 and then sell it used on
Ebay if you do not like it; availability will probably be so tight initially
that the economic risk to doing so will be minimal.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

I am amazed that folks are predicting that the 396 is going to be the
holy grail of handhelds when, to my knowledge, no one so far in this
thread has touched one.

That is always possible. But, all of Garmin's recent (last five years?)
products to date have been hits. The 430/530 - everyone loves 'em. The
195 - a trailblazer. 295 - I still have mine and it works great. 196
- first GPS with a small "partial panel" display (and it works.)
Everyone loved it. 296 - terrain + weather, lithium ion batteries,
great unit size/display ratio. Another hit. Now the 396. Honestly,
who'd bet against Garmin? Give it a couple of months and I think you'll
see the unit lives up to the hype (which is user, not company generated.)

Secondly, the configuration issues that Richard speaks of are overblown
in my experience. He has continued to reiterate his own points, which
is fine, but some of them I've refuted. I do have a PDA system with XM
weather and I NEVER have to touch Bluetooth configuration or "manage"
the Bluetooth connections. Things may be different on a TabletPC, or
for those trying to do other things with their PDAs, but out of the box
they seem pretty much plug-and-play to me. They obviously aren't as
integrated as the 396, but that has both advantages and disadvantages.
Many of the XM problems reported by CV and WxWorx on Wings users seem
related to XM, so there is no guarantee that Garmin's users won't
experience them too.

Well, I'm not a total stranger to PDA solutions, or AnywhereMap/WX for
that matter. Fact is, this is a piece of software which cannot ever
hope to approach Garmin's reliability. We were discussing the 396 on
another forum, and one user stated that after the last time her AWM
"crapped out," she didn't bother to reload it and simply used the GPS in
her car for land navigation. I have used PDAs for years, including in
the cockpit, and even when I was happy with my cost-effective Palm VIIx
+ Palm.net + CBAV, I knew it was a less-than-ideal solution. The
extremely low cost of entry and tiny monthly fees made it worth it.

The PDA can be a useful tool, but clearly, it is not made for aviation
use. It can be hacked into doing so, but it will never be ideal, for
many obvious reasons. The interface is just not optimized for use
in-flight, in the cockpit.

The entire discussion began when Richard suggested that the 396 would
have less wires running to it than a PDA. With a Bluetooth capable PDA,
a Bluetooth GPS, and Bluetooth XM receiver, that assertion is false. I
simply stated that and then things started to snowball.

(Shrug) You could bluetooth it, but I agree with Richard. It's a
hassle, not to mention expensive. I've used Bluetooth devices before
and you're often limited by proper positioning of the devices in
relation to each other, configuration issues (glad you don't have them,
but many others do) and all kinds of other headaches which I simply no
longer have the patience to deal with. The 396 can operate with as
little as one external cable connection. The lithium ion battery, if
proven to be as effective as it has been in the 296, will provide more
than enough juice for flights of medium to long duration. Your
bluetooth setup is not typical; most folks are dealing with a lot of
wires in the cockpit for AWM/Wx. This is proven true by the fact that
excess cables are perhaps one of the top two complaints about the
cobbled-together AWM setup.

I am not anti-Garmin. I do like Garmin's products, and I presently own
and use two Garmin GPS units regularly. However, contrary to popular
belief, Garmin's products are computers and their software does have
bugs. Also, before I'm ready to declare that the 396 solves world
hunger, I'd like to see it or at least hear from those who have seen it
and used it. I suspect that we will have many hands-on reports posted
in a couple of weeks, after Oshkosh.

The difference is, these 'computers' are both DESIGNED and BUILT by
Garmin specifically for aviation functions. While it would be
inaccurate to say that their past products have been totally bug-free,
those bugs have been of the "minor" variety and quickly fixed with
revisions readily available from Garmin's website. Bugs are easy to fix
when all of the products are identical to each other; not so when you're
patching software which can run on many different PDAs.

The 396 may not solve world hunger, but I suspect it'll solve the GA
world's "hunger" for a portable weather solution which is reliable,
transportable, and cost-effective.

What issues did Rich mention about CV's products? In fact, I didn't see
any negative comments or issues reported about CV's products in this
thread. What am I missing?

I am surprised you need me to recount this for you. Whether they're
"negative" or not is in the eye of the beholder, but here you go:

"Your PDA needs a GPS antenna, an XM Wx antenna, power to the weather
receiver, and either a power cable or batteries to the PDA. You also
need to manage the Bluetooth connection, a source of technical issues in
flight."

"For the market of renter pilots -- which is quite substantial -- a 396
is much more convenient logistically than a PDA solution."

"The Garmin portable GPS units also have vertical navigation abilities
superior to any PDA, which can be quite helpful in an emergency."

"It is relevant to renter pilots in particular because it is by far the
easiest way to put both GPS navigation and weather in a rental airplane.
Sure you can set up an XM receiver, Bluetooth GPS, and PDA whenever you
rent a plane, but that is a lot more work then plugging in a 396."

Best regards,

-Ryan

"Ryan Ferguson" wrote:

That is always possible. But, all of Garmin's recent (last five
years?) products to date have been hits. The 430/530 - everyone loves
'em. The 195 - a trailblazer. 295 - I still have mine and it works
great. 196 - first GPS with a small "partial panel" display (and it
works.) Everyone loved it. 296 - terrain + weather, lithium ion
batteries, great unit size/display ratio. Another hit.

Don't forget the GPS III Pilot, one of the greatest little gizmos of any
kind I've ever owned.

[snip]

The 396 may not solve world hunger, but I suspect it'll solve the GA
world's "hunger" for a portable weather solution which is reliable,
transportable, and cost-effective.

Yep; that's the bottom line. It doesn't take a crystal ball to predict
this thing will be a hit.

Garmin is scary; it's got to be tough to be one of their competitors.
I'd sure like to know what their mfr.'s gross margin per unit is for the
396.

[snip]

So, Ryan: ya' ordered one yet?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM