"Refusing to Handle You"

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Shouldn't that be taken into consideration by ATC prior to issuance of the
clearance?


They probably did. Remember, they initially issued a different route which
was declined due to weather. Perhaps they then issued the route through the
TRACON hoping they could sell it to approach.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Shouldn't that be taken into consideration by ATC prior to issuance of the
clearance?



They probably did. Remember, they initially issued a different route which
was declined due to weather. Perhaps they then issued the route through the
TRACON hoping they could sell it to approach.



OK. I always figured that the route was "pre sold" end to end before
being issued. I've gotten partial route clearances before and assumed
that was what happened when they couldn't get the entire route approved.
I'd have never guessed that getting a full route clearance left open
this sort of possibility. That seems bizarre to me.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:
OK. I always figured that the route was "pre sold" end to end before
being issued. I've gotten partial route clearances before and assumed
that was what happened when they couldn't get the entire route approved.
I'd have never guessed that getting a full route clearance left open
this sort of possibility. That seems bizarre to me.

Are you saying you've never gotten a reroute in flight?

Roy Smith wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:

OK. I always figured that the route was "pre sold" end to end before
being issued. I've gotten partial route clearances before and assumed
that was what happened when they couldn't get the entire route approved.
I'd have never guessed that getting a full route clearance left open
this sort of possibility. That seems bizarre to me.


Are you saying you've never gotten a reroute in flight?

No, didn't say that at all. I've never been given a NON-route in
mid-flight though, which is the topic at hand.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

No, didn't say that at all. I've never been given a NON-route in
mid-flight though, which is the topic at hand.


No it isn't. All that happened here is the route that he had been cleared
on was not available to him and he had to select an alternative.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message

Are you saying you've never gotten a reroute in flight?

Sure you get re-routes all the time. However, you are under no obligation
to accept them if you have good reason.

In this case I would have declined the re-route and stood my ground --- end
of story.

I have encountered similar situations flying to Long Island where I have
been assigned overwater re-routes -- no matter how unhappy or insistent ATC
may be I will not accept an overwate route nor am I required to do so. The
same logic applies here. There can be nor would there be any adverse
consequences for the pilot to exert PIC authority in the interest of flight
safety.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan wrote:
Sure you get re-routes all the time. However, you are under no obligation
to accept them if you have good reason.

In this case I would have declined the re-route and stood my ground --- end
of story.
(SNIP)

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

And if "standing your ground" results in a hold in current position
until you choose to land, reverse course, or accept the offered routing,
then what? If you declare an "emergency" then the expectation is that
you will land at the nearest suitable airport.

There is no reason the posting pilot couldn't have landed and waited the
weather out.

What if the area of unavailable airspace was a hot MOA or Restricted
area? I've been rerouted enroute because of an area going hot after i
was previously cleared through (but before I penetrated it). If the
offered routing is not available, my choices are accept a reroute (of
whats available), turn back or land. The controller cant offer what he
doesnt have available.

Dave

"Dave S" wrote in message And if "standing your
ground" results in a hold in current position
until you choose to land, reverse course, or accept the offered routing,
then what?

I suppose anything is possible but that is highly unlikely. In any event,
the proper response is to state "Unable" and then wait to see what the
controller says. Most likely the controller will then offer to work with
you with a hold and/or vectors around traffic that will more or less be
equivalent to the route you need. Now I agree the controller might instead
come back not with a terse "Potomac will not accept you" but rather "There
has been a major incident and BWI is closed" or something catastrophic like
that, in which case yes, landing might be your only option. But 99% of the
time "Unable" will indeed prompt ATC to come up with another plan.

If you declare an "emergency" then the expectation is that you will land
at the nearest suitable airport.

I am not at all proposing to declare an emergency. I am proposing the pilot
fly his clearance and not accept any alternate clearance which he feels is
unsafe. There is nothing of an emergency nature here.

There is no reason the posting pilot couldn't have landed and waited the
weather out.

ATC would have to give me a good reason for me to do that -- the reason
would have to be more than "Potomac is not accepting traffic."


What if the area of unavailable airspace was a hot MOA or Restricted area?

Then ATC would have to contact the relevant military aircraft and make the
airspace cold if weather requires their airspace to be used for traffic
already on an IFR clearance.

I've been rerouted enroute because of an area going hot after i

No problem if there are no weather or other reasons to preclude your
reroute. I am not saying to decline the new clearance arbitrarily -- only
to decline it if there are weather concerns.

whats available), turn back or land. The controller cant offer what he
doesnt have available.

If you tell the controller you are "Unable" to accept an alternate route, he
may well be able to negotiate for more airspace to become available.

Bottom line: A clearance is a clearance. You must accept an assigned
revised clearance if it is within your capability, but if you judge the
revised clearance to be unsafe there is no reason why you need to accept it
and instead ATC will work with you to find a solution.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan wrote:



What if the area of unavailable airspace was a hot MOA or Restricted area?


Then ATC would have to contact the relevant military aircraft and make the
airspace cold if weather requires their airspace to be used for traffic
already on an IFR clearance.



Oh? I've read quite a bit of stuff, and I've yet to come across
something that lets ATC take a MOA or Restricted area back at their
choosing.

Tell me where that procedure is found.

Back to the original point... You dont have to accept what they are
offering. But they dont have to offer you what you want (or NEED). They
also cant offer what the "system" wont provide.

Your options can be as harsh as "cancel IFR" and scud run, or land at
the nearest field and sort it out on the ground. The phrase " XXX
approach is refusing to handle you" tells me that they are not going to
play ball. No telling what the reason is, from the original post.
Perhaps the airspace was busy, perhaps there was a "push" going on in
the middle of the desired sectors, perhaps what you wanted was contrary
to an exiting LOA between center and approach, and approach was within
their right to say "preferred routing or go all the way around".

No matter how you cut it, unless you are excercising emergency
authority, you have to go where they tell you. Usually this isnt a prob,
and most of the times they can work with you. But.. push comes to shove,
you have to fly your clearance. If you dont accept it, you are the one
who has to deal with it if no other alternatives are forthcoming.

Dave

"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
I suppose anything is possible but that is highly unlikely. In any event,
the proper response is to state "Unable" and then wait to see what the
controller says.

This started out with

Wash Center: "Err, 8096J, Potomac Approach is refusing to handle
you, say intentions."

I don't think "unable" is a useful response to "say intentions".