"Refusing to Handle You"

Jose wrote:
Let's see if I can learn something, and turn this around. It's =you=
flying up the coast, say to Teterboro. You're directly on the other
side of Potomac Approach's airspace (whatever shape it happens to be at
that time). For argument's sake, you're at 5000 feet in a rental 172RG
with a moving map GPS, no radar, no spherics, and no weather imagery
available to you (except via descriptions on the radio). You have three
and a half hours of gas, and have a clearance through to your
destination, which takes you in between building TCU. There are cells
to your west and northwest somewhere, maybe forty miles off your route.
You're IMC.

"N423YL, Potomac is refusing to handle you. What are your intentions?"

How do you respond?

I'm not quite sure where you intended that I am in your scenario, but I'll
assume "the other side of Potomac" from Teterboro means I'm somewhere
around Gordonsville VOR.

Well, first I would ask myself what the heck I'm doing flying with no
weather imagery and embedded thunderstorms all around me. That's not my
idea of fun.

Second, I would realize that I no longer have clearance through to my
destination. Sure, we haven't yet dotted the I's and crossed the T's by
agreeing on a new clearance, but it's already been made clear to me that
the original plan just isn't happening any more.

I need to come up with an alternative plan. There's two basic choices;
land, or continue flying. Let's assume I decide I want to try to press on.
I need to fly around or over Potomac's airspace. So, I might start by
asking some questions:

"If I climbed up to 9000, would that help?"

Center comes back with, "Sorry, you'd need to get up to 13,000 to stay in
Center airspace on that route, can you make that?" (I'm making that up, but
it sounds plausable).

"Unable 13,000. Tell you what, can you give me direct Salisbury VOR for
now, and let me go off frequency for a while to talk to Flight Service?"

"N423YL, cleared to the Salisbury VOR via direct, maintain 5000, report
back on the frequency within 5 minutes".

At that point, I'd call up Flight Watch, figure out what the weather is
doing over there, and decide if I could continue or not. If things didn't
look good weather-wise in that direction, or I just decided the workload
was getting to high, I'd just pick a reasonable nearby airport and ask for
clearance to it. Once on the ground, I could take my time and make a new
plan.

A couple of weeks ago, I departed BWI for HPN with ****ty weather reported
at my destination, but forecast to clear up about by the time I got there.
Along the way, we got a re-route the long way around (i.e. New York was
refusing to work us). Called FSS, got a weather update, discovered things
still sucked at HPN (1/8 mile in heavy rain), got back to ATC and told them
I wanted to land at Allentown. Landed, bought some more fuel, met another
pilot who was ferrying a Pitts from New Jersey to California and spent an
hour swapping stories with him over lunch. By then, the weather had
cleared up a bit, and off we went.

"Unable 13,000. Tell you what, can you give me direct Salisbury VOR for
now, and let me go off frequency for a while to talk to Flight Service?"

"Unable Salsbury. I already told you Potomac is refusing to accept you."

(I'm making up the fact that Salsbury is served by Potomac approach -
you as a pilot have no good way to know what is and what isn't. In
fact, Salsbury may only be served by Potomac from 3000 to 7000, but you
are at 5000 and the controller is being as helpful and forthcoming now
as he was originally).

Now what?

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
"Unable 13,000. Tell you what, can you give me direct Salisbury VOR for
now, and let me go off frequency for a while to talk to Flight Service?"

"Unable Salsbury. I already told you Potomac is refusing to accept you."

(I'm making up the fact that Salsbury is served by Potomac approach -
you as a pilot have no good way to know what is and what isn't. In
fact, Salsbury may only be served by Potomac from 3000 to 7000, but you
are at 5000 and the controller is being as helpful and forthcoming now
as he was originally).

Now what?

I'm not sure where this is going, but how about:

"What clearance can you give me which will get me around to the east
of Potomac's airspace?"

Maybe he'll say something like, "I need to keep you about 5 miles south of
Salisbury. Can you navigate direct to XXXXX and I'll try and get you
something better after that?"

Or maybe he'll say, "Unfortunately, I can't get you anywhere near
there. The best I can do in that direction is blah, blah. Can you do
that?"

You seem to be expecting that he's going to say, "Bzzzt, wrong answer,
try again". It doesn't work like that. It doesn't do either you or
the controller any good to waste time playing 20 questions. He's just
as interested in getting you where you're going as you are.

Why is this such a complicated concept? You know what you want to do
and you ask for it. If ATC is unable to give it to you, you decide
what you want to do instead and ask for that. "Say intentions" should
not be something pilots fear hearing. It's nothing more than a
jargony way of saying, "What can I do for you?" If you can't come up
with a useful answer to "say intentions", you have no business being
PIC.

I'm not sure where this is going, but how about:

"What clearance can you give me which will get me around to the east
of Potomac's airspace?"

Good enough.

...Or maybe he'll say, "Unfortunately, I can't get you anywhere near
there. The best I can do in that direction is blah, blah. Can you do
that?"

Well, he's at this point offering something. He could have been
offering something from the start, since he knows where I am and where
I'm heading. A more helpful original call would have been: "Potomac
can't take you right now. I can take you around twenty miles to the
East if you like, or to the northwest direct XXX. Which would you prefer?"

You seem to be expecting that he's going to say, "Bzzzt, wrong answer,
try again". It doesn't work like that.

No, it doesn't usually work like that. However, "you can't do that,
what are you going to do about it?" sure makes it seem like the
controller is playing that game.

"Say intentions" should
not be something pilots fear hearing.

It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
"Say intentions" should not be something pilots fear hearing.

It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.

"We've revoked your clearance" boils down to a re-route. Surely
you're not saying that you fear getting a re-route? It happens all
the time.

"We've revoked your clearance, say intentions" is just a re-route plus
an offer to let you decide how you would like to be re-routed. Why
should that be something to fear?

It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.

"We've revoked your clearance" boils down to a re-route.

No, it boils down to "guess the reroute or go home." It only looks like
an offer to let me decide how I would like to be rerouted - to
=actually= decide I'd have to know what Potomac's airspace looks like.
I don't, and should not be expected to.

It's probably just a misunderstanding based on the controllers not being
pilots, and the pilots not being controllers (and therefore not knowing
what can and cannot be taken for granted), but in this context "say
intentions" sounds like "what are you going to do about it?", which
makes it seem like the controller is going to be non-helpful when the
pilot is depending on the cooperation of the controller.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
...

No, it boils down to "guess the reroute or go home." It only looks like
an offer to let me decide how I would like to be rerouted - to =actually=
decide I'd have to know what Potomac's airspace looks like. I don't, and
should not be expected to.


It's not that way at all.

"Jose" wrote in message
...
It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.

"We've revoked your clearance" boils down to a re-route.

No, it boils down to "guess the reroute or go home." It only looks like
an offer to let me decide how I would like to be rerouted - to =actually=
decide I'd have to know what Potomac's airspace looks like. I don't, and
should not be expected to.

It's probably just a misunderstanding based on the controllers not being
pilots, and the pilots not being controllers (and therefore not knowing
what can and cannot be taken for granted), but in this context "say
intentions" sounds like "what are you going to do about it?", which makes
it seem like the controller is going to be non-helpful when the pilot is
depending on the cooperation of the controller.

Jose

I don't read this situation as "guess the reroute or go home." The Center
Controller is going to be issuing Mike ATC instructions to keep him out of
Potomac Approach, because Potomac has unabled an IFR handoff. The Center
guy is helpfully fishing for Mike's input. He may not have used the best
phrasing, but that's what it boils down to. No way in hell the Center
controller is going to let Mike procede on course. He can't. If Mike
doesn't do anything more at all, the Center is going to at least vector him
to stay out of the Tracon.

Chip, ZTL

"Jose" wrote in message
...

Well, he's at this point offering something.


Yup. All he needed was some idea of your intentions.



He could have been offering
something from the start, since he knows where I am and where I'm heading.


But not what you want.



A more helpful original call would have been: "Potomac can't take you
right now. I can take you around twenty miles to the East if you like, or
to the northwest direct XXX. Which would you prefer?"


Well, those are obvious and not the only options. Stating the obvious just
wastes time.



No, it doesn't usually work like that. However, "you can't do that, what
are you going to do about it?" sure makes it seem like the controller is
playing that game.


That's the way it seems to you. It's not that way.



It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.


That wasn't said.

Jose wrote:
I'm not sure where this is going, but how about:

"What clearance can you give me which will get me around to the east
of Potomac's airspace?"


Good enough.


...Or maybe he'll say, "Unfortunately, I can't get you anywhere near
there. The best I can do in that direction is blah, blah. Can you do
that?"


Well, he's at this point offering something. He could have been
offering something from the start, since he knows where I am and where
I'm heading. A more helpful original call would have been: "Potomac
can't take you right now. I can take you around twenty miles to the
East if you like, or to the northwest direct XXX. Which would you prefer?"


You seem to be expecting that he's going to say, "Bzzzt, wrong answer,
try again". It doesn't work like that.


No, it doesn't usually work like that. However, "you can't do that,
what are you going to do about it?" sure makes it seem like the
controller is playing that game.


"Say intentions" should
not be something pilots fear hearing.


It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.

Jose

Exactly. They tear up my clearance constantly and issue new ones.
The best I can think of is that since the entire plan basically got
canceled, they were letting the OP rethink it all.