"Refusing to Handle You"

"Unable 13,000. Tell you what, can you give me direct Salisbury VOR for
now, and let me go off frequency for a while to talk to Flight Service?"

"Unable Salsbury. I already told you Potomac is refusing to accept you."

(I'm making up the fact that Salsbury is served by Potomac approach -
you as a pilot have no good way to know what is and what isn't. In
fact, Salsbury may only be served by Potomac from 3000 to 7000, but you
are at 5000 and the controller is being as helpful and forthcoming now
as he was originally).

Now what?

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
"Unable 13,000. Tell you what, can you give me direct Salisbury VOR for
now, and let me go off frequency for a while to talk to Flight Service?"

"Unable Salsbury. I already told you Potomac is refusing to accept you."

(I'm making up the fact that Salsbury is served by Potomac approach -
you as a pilot have no good way to know what is and what isn't. In
fact, Salsbury may only be served by Potomac from 3000 to 7000, but you
are at 5000 and the controller is being as helpful and forthcoming now
as he was originally).

Now what?

I'm not sure where this is going, but how about:

"What clearance can you give me which will get me around to the east
of Potomac's airspace?"

Maybe he'll say something like, "I need to keep you about 5 miles south of
Salisbury. Can you navigate direct to XXXXX and I'll try and get you
something better after that?"

Or maybe he'll say, "Unfortunately, I can't get you anywhere near
there. The best I can do in that direction is blah, blah. Can you do
that?"

You seem to be expecting that he's going to say, "Bzzzt, wrong answer,
try again". It doesn't work like that. It doesn't do either you or
the controller any good to waste time playing 20 questions. He's just
as interested in getting you where you're going as you are.

Why is this such a complicated concept? You know what you want to do
and you ask for it. If ATC is unable to give it to you, you decide
what you want to do instead and ask for that. "Say intentions" should
not be something pilots fear hearing. It's nothing more than a
jargony way of saying, "What can I do for you?" If you can't come up
with a useful answer to "say intentions", you have no business being
PIC.

I'm not sure where this is going, but how about:

"What clearance can you give me which will get me around to the east
of Potomac's airspace?"

Good enough.

...Or maybe he'll say, "Unfortunately, I can't get you anywhere near
there. The best I can do in that direction is blah, blah. Can you do
that?"

Well, he's at this point offering something. He could have been
offering something from the start, since he knows where I am and where
I'm heading. A more helpful original call would have been: "Potomac
can't take you right now. I can take you around twenty miles to the
East if you like, or to the northwest direct XXX. Which would you prefer?"

You seem to be expecting that he's going to say, "Bzzzt, wrong answer,
try again". It doesn't work like that.

No, it doesn't usually work like that. However, "you can't do that,
what are you going to do about it?" sure makes it seem like the
controller is playing that game.

"Say intentions" should
not be something pilots fear hearing.

It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
"Say intentions" should not be something pilots fear hearing.

It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.

"We've revoked your clearance" boils down to a re-route. Surely
you're not saying that you fear getting a re-route? It happens all
the time.

"We've revoked your clearance, say intentions" is just a re-route plus
an offer to let you decide how you would like to be re-routed. Why
should that be something to fear?

It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.

"We've revoked your clearance" boils down to a re-route.

No, it boils down to "guess the reroute or go home." It only looks like
an offer to let me decide how I would like to be rerouted - to
=actually= decide I'd have to know what Potomac's airspace looks like.
I don't, and should not be expected to.

It's probably just a misunderstanding based on the controllers not being
pilots, and the pilots not being controllers (and therefore not knowing
what can and cannot be taken for granted), but in this context "say
intentions" sounds like "what are you going to do about it?", which
makes it seem like the controller is going to be non-helpful when the
pilot is depending on the cooperation of the controller.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
...

No, it boils down to "guess the reroute or go home." It only looks like
an offer to let me decide how I would like to be rerouted - to =actually=
decide I'd have to know what Potomac's airspace looks like. I don't, and
should not be expected to.


It's not that way at all.

"Jose" wrote in message
...
It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.

"We've revoked your clearance" boils down to a re-route.

No, it boils down to "guess the reroute or go home." It only looks like
an offer to let me decide how I would like to be rerouted - to =actually=
decide I'd have to know what Potomac's airspace looks like. I don't, and
should not be expected to.

It's probably just a misunderstanding based on the controllers not being
pilots, and the pilots not being controllers (and therefore not knowing
what can and cannot be taken for granted), but in this context "say
intentions" sounds like "what are you going to do about it?", which makes
it seem like the controller is going to be non-helpful when the pilot is
depending on the cooperation of the controller.

Jose

I don't read this situation as "guess the reroute or go home." The Center
Controller is going to be issuing Mike ATC instructions to keep him out of
Potomac Approach, because Potomac has unabled an IFR handoff. The Center
guy is helpfully fishing for Mike's input. He may not have used the best
phrasing, but that's what it boils down to. No way in hell the Center
controller is going to let Mike procede on course. He can't. If Mike
doesn't do anything more at all, the Center is going to at least vector him
to stay out of the Tracon.

Chip, ZTL

"Jose" wrote in message
...

Well, he's at this point offering something.


Yup. All he needed was some idea of your intentions.



He could have been offering
something from the start, since he knows where I am and where I'm heading.


But not what you want.



A more helpful original call would have been: "Potomac can't take you
right now. I can take you around twenty miles to the East if you like, or
to the northwest direct XXX. Which would you prefer?"


Well, those are obvious and not the only options. Stating the obvious just
wastes time.



No, it doesn't usually work like that. However, "you can't do that, what
are you going to do about it?" sure makes it seem like the controller is
playing that game.


That's the way it seems to you. It's not that way.



It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.


That wasn't said.

Jose wrote:
I'm not sure where this is going, but how about:

"What clearance can you give me which will get me around to the east
of Potomac's airspace?"


Good enough.


...Or maybe he'll say, "Unfortunately, I can't get you anywhere near
there. The best I can do in that direction is blah, blah. Can you do
that?"


Well, he's at this point offering something. He could have been
offering something from the start, since he knows where I am and where
I'm heading. A more helpful original call would have been: "Potomac
can't take you right now. I can take you around twenty miles to the
East if you like, or to the northwest direct XXX. Which would you prefer?"


You seem to be expecting that he's going to say, "Bzzzt, wrong answer,
try again". It doesn't work like that.


No, it doesn't usually work like that. However, "you can't do that,
what are you going to do about it?" sure makes it seem like the
controller is playing that game.


"Say intentions" should
not be something pilots fear hearing.


It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.

Jose

Exactly. They tear up my clearance constantly and issue new ones.
The best I can think of is that since the entire plan basically got
canceled, they were letting the OP rethink it all.

If an old man can make another comment that may not be current in todays
situations. When the original clearance was issued it conformed with
"standardized" departure procedures from the departing airport/terminal
facility. Even though a rereoute either major or minor will be required in
the future the clearance is issued. The first time the controller would be
aware of it would be in the center sector/terminal facility immediately
prior to the required change. This may or may not be compatible with
traffic flows in effect. ie departure procedures, arrivals procedures, etc.
Maybe on of the current controllers could be so kind to explain the
tailoring symbols on a flight progress strip. If they still use them.

I find it exceptionally hard to beleive any controller would use the phrase
"refused". I can beleive they told you you would have to be rerouted.

Nuff for now thanks for letting me vent.
Al

"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...
Jose wrote:
I'm not sure where this is going, but how about:

"What clearance can you give me which will get me around to the east
of Potomac's airspace?"


Good enough.


...Or maybe he'll say, "Unfortunately, I can't get you anywhere near
there. The best I can do in that direction is blah, blah. Can you do
that?"


Well, he's at this point offering something. He could have been
offering something from the start, since he knows where I am and where
I'm heading. A more helpful original call would have been: "Potomac
can't take you right now. I can take you around twenty miles to the
East if you like, or to the northwest direct XXX. Which would you
prefer?"


You seem to be expecting that he's going to say, "Bzzzt, wrong answer,
try again". It doesn't work like that.


No, it doesn't usually work like that. However, "you can't do that,
what are you going to do about it?" sure makes it seem like the
controller is playing that game.


"Say intentions" should
not be something pilots fear hearing.


It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.

Jose

Exactly. They tear up my clearance constantly and issue new ones.
The best I can think of is that since the entire plan basically got
canceled, they were letting the OP rethink it all.