So what happens when 100LL is gone anyway?

wrote in message
oups.com...
That's fine for new production & some retrofits, but what about all the
Navajos/Twin Cessnas/Barons/etc. where re-engining would cost more than
the aircraft?


They become worthless. The problem isn't just octane it is also vapor
pressure. The octane problem can be solved but there doesn't seem to be an
economical solution to the vapor pressure problem. The pressurized piston
twins are probably toast if TEL becomes unavailible.

Mike
MU-2

Yeah, but it would have to be an FAA-certified treatment. Can you see
the problem yet?

Why? You don't obey every single rule 100% of the time in your car,
why should your airplane be different?

Lots of people out there using MMO, and nobody certified it.

Michael

Mike,

You obviously haven't been the Europe in the past ten years.


I'm missing your point. What is it?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:00:27 -0700, Sylvain wrote:

I wouldn't be so sure about that; some of the european manufacturers
who make the best diesel engines don't even bother to export to USA
(e.g., Peugeot)

Could be a wholly different reason for Peugeot not being here, and it
has nothing to do with their diesel engine.

I used to work on those things and to me they personified "very
difficult to work on, break frequently, bad parts availability and
expensive when they finally arrive." In addition, the diesel engines
kept blowing head gaskets.

Also, at least during the 70's, the Peugeot folks refused to conform
to US standards for cockpit ergonomics, so to speak, so the horn was
on a stalk to the left of the steering wheel (if I'm remembering this
right), and you had to push it in towards the steering wheel to make
it work, and the turn signal was on the right. They might be
conforming now for all I know. Yes, they did handle bumps nicely.

Maybe sales just got so bad Peugeot simply gave up trying.

Corky (Renault's weren't any better) Scott

On 2005-07-20, Thomas Borchert wrote:
Cub,

The diesels sold in the U.S. are the same as those sold in Europe,
assuming that's what you mean by yours and ours.

Well, you couldn't be more off the mark. A modern common-rail injected
turbocharged automotive diesel engine with particle filter or catalyzer
is something really, really rare on US roads. And no, it isn't smelly
at all.

I went to visit a friend a couple of weekends ago. I didn't even realise
his new car was a diesel until he mentioned it the next day. It didn't
sound like a diesel, it didn't smell like a diesel.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Mike Rapoport wrote:

They become worthless. The problem isn't just octane it is also vapor
pressure. The octane problem can be solved but there doesn't seem to be an
economical solution to the vapor pressure problem. The pressurized piston
twins are probably toast if TEL becomes unavailible.

There is a guy (in NC I believe) cutting the engines off (3' on each
wing) the Barons and sticking a turboprop on the nose. Working on his
second conversion now...

Higher fuel per hour burn, but flys faster and higher so it actually
burns less...

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:22:33 +0200, Martin Hotze
wrote:

ah, the old myth again. don't compare your US diesels with our diesels.
sure, the technical principles always stay the same, but there is a big
difference at the end.

The diesels sold in the U.S. are the same as those sold in Europe,
assuming that's what you mean by yours and ours. This is a global
economy. And there isn't a whole lot of difference in the end:
particulates, especially. Diesels today are certainly a huge
improvement over the clanking Mercedes of yesteryear, but they are
still pretty smelly. And Diesel fuel costs more than gasoline at the
local pump, also a big change from yesteryear. This will only get
worse as their ratio in the fleet increases.

(One reason gas in the U.S. is so cheap--and it is cheap, even though
it has doubled in the past couple of years--is that the Europeans have
so thoroughly switched over to diesel that they have gasoline to
export. A lot of New England's gasoline comes from Holland. Thanks,
guys!)



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

WRONG WRONG WRONG!

Diesel fuel costs much less than gasoline in Europe.

The reason American gasoline is cheap is because Congree is too
chicken**** to raise fuel taxes to fix the hemorraging budget deficit.
Seems odd for a war over oil. Or was it WMDs or freedom? I forget...

Euro diesels are light years beyond US diesels as a result of low sulfur
fuels and advanced fuel injection (common rail) systems. Operating at
pressures that would explode the American-style dielsel fuel pump, these
engines are nearly free of diesel clatter and typically perform better
in terms of fuel economy and acceleration than their gasoline
counterparts. Low sulfur diesel fuel is a requirement as the sulfuric
acid is quite corrosive to the pump and injector and any catalysts
needed to clean up the exhaust.

"Repo Man" wrote in message
WRONG WRONG WRONG!

Diesel fuel costs much less than gasoline in Europe.

The reason American gasoline is cheap is because Congree is too
chicken**** to raise fuel taxes to fix the hemorraging budget deficit.
Seems odd for a war over oil. Or was it WMDs or freedom? I forget...

Stick to engines - your knowledge of the economic record is abysmal (or
you've been listening to Paul Krugman).


Euro diesels are light years beyond US diesels as a result of low sulfur
fuels and advanced fuel injection (common rail) systems.

The fuel makes the engine? Ummm....wanna explain that?

Operating at
pressures that would explode the American-style dielsel fuel pump, these
engines are nearly free of diesel clatter and typically perform better
in terms of fuel economy and acceleration than their gasoline
counterparts.

Could you show just some basic links that show some sort of comparison?
(you don't have to delineate the data...just the links)

Low sulfur diesel fuel is a requirement as the sulfuric
acid is quite corrosive to the pump and injector and any catalysts
needed to clean up the exhaust.

How much of the world crude is "sweet" crude, rather than sulfurphic?

"Dudley Henriques" dhenriques@noware .net wrote

Don't know about the small airplane folks, but the warbird guys are going
to be mad as hell. We have the power back on a P51 now to 45 inches on
takeoff because of the fuel restriction. Any lower and the damn airplane
will be taking off at cruise power!! :-)

What about racing gas that NASCAR guys use? It would take special
arrangements to get it, but I think it is well over 100 octane.
--
Jim in NC

Scott -

Admittedly many auto gas station pumps in WI & especially MN have only
ethanol
laced fuel. But non-ethanol is available in WI at some pumps, and
there are a few pumps in MN at gas stations with a non-alcohol premium
in them. Both MN and WI also have unleaded fuel available for airports
and
marinas. Just keep asking your FBO for autofuel. He can get it if he
really
wants to - (except maybe in California?)