No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:04:52 -0800, wrote:

I sure didn't know that. What if the tower says "after takeoff maintain
runway heading, climb to 5000" etc. etc. and the ODP has some other sort
of departure (e.g. a turn of some kind)?

I'm relatively new to this but I thought I had to follow what the tower
says in the clearance, until handed off to Departure...

That's different from the situation Roy cited. And yes, if you receive a
vector from ATC, you are obligated to follow it (or question it if you feel
it is unsafe).

If there is an ODP, and based on your review of the situation at that
airport and your aircraft performance, you feel that the vector might not
afford adequate obstacle clearance, it is your obligation to question it,
or even refuse it.

Furthermore, if the tower instructions include a turn, you are not expected
to make that turn until 400' AGL.

Of course, the tower should not issue an unsafe instruction. However, the
AIM does state that "...obstacle clearance is not provided by ATC until the
controller begins to provide navigational guidance in the form of *radar
vectors*." (emphasis mine).

See AIM 5-2-6. And there have been a number of accidents that could have
been avoided had pilots complied with ODP's at various locations.





Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

you receive a vector from ATC, you are obligated to follow it (or
question it if you feel it is unsafe

What tower would give you is not a vector; it's a heading.

In article ,
Greg Esres wrote:

you receive a vector from ATC, you are obligated to follow it (or
question it if you feel it is unsafe

What tower would give you is not a vector; it's a heading.


Is there any practical difference?

Is there any practical difference?

Yes...only radar vectors put the burden of obstacle clearance on the
controller. And radar vectors require radar contact.

So a tower guy giving me a heading isn't able to provide me with any
promise of obstacle clearance.

Greg Esres wrote:

Is there any practical difference?

Yes...only radar vectors put the burden of obstacle clearance on the
controller. And radar vectors require radar contact.


And, at a mountain airport, until you reach MVA on departure, even the
radar controller and you are in a obstacle-clearance haze.

wrote:



And, at a mountain airport, until you reach MVA on departure, even the
radar controller and you are in a obstacle-clearance haze.

Mountain airport, non mountain airport it doesn't matter. There is no haze.

Newps wrote:

wrote:


And, at a mountain airport, until you reach MVA on departure, even the
radar controller and you are in a obstacle-clearance haze.

Mountain airport, non mountain airport it doesn't matter. There is no haze.

Well, how do you determine where the obstacles are below the MVA. Dig out a
sectional chart?

There is a whole lot of haze.

Greg Esres wrote:

Is there any practical difference?

Yes...only radar vectors put the burden of obstacle clearance on the
controller. And radar vectors require radar contact.

So a tower guy giving me a heading isn't able to provide me with any
promise of obstacle clearance.

Tower guys don't give headings, they give vectors

Tower guys don't give headings, they give vectors

Nonsense. Vectors require radar contact, and lots of towers aren't
associated at all with any radar facility.

Greg Esres wrote:

Tower guys don't give headings, they give vectors

Nonsense. Vectors require radar contact, and lots of towers aren't
associated at all with any radar facility.

Vectors do not require radar contact when issued with your takeoff
clearance. There are rules as to how soon after you takeoff that you
must be seen on the radar, otherwise the controller cannot vector you.
The tower itself does not have to have radar to give you a vector. If
the approach control can see aircraft within a half a mile after takeoff
they may have the tower give you a vector.