No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?

Greg Esres wrote in message . ..
That's not always the case. And to make matters worse, the pilot
has no way of knowing without direct knowledge.

When would that not be the case? And if it were the case, the pilot
must certainly know. If you don't hear the words "radar contact"
followed by a heading, then you're not being vectored.

Greg,

Now that I think about it some more, I think the issue is
that some VFR towers (which won't tell you "radar contact")
can relay radar vectors from the radar approach control
which serves them. But sitting on the ground, I have no
way of knowing whether Whatzits Approach meets the criteria
(whatever they are) to provide radar vectors to Podunk Tower.
If I hear "fly heading XXX, intercept the ABC 188 degree
radial" is that a vector or a heading?

Beats me. We've sure gotten headings like that from VFR
towers which I'm pretty durn sure were way too far from
a radar facility to have coverage close to the ground, and
in fact we didn't hear "radar contact" until we were above
3,000 ft. So I don't think they were vectors. They were
headings. OTOH "fly heading XXX" from our local VFR tower
which sits under the STL class B might be vectors. Dunno.

I think the rule has to be, if there's something to hit
and departure instructions don't include the obstacle
DP, Ask.

Cheers,
Sydney

VFR towers (which won't tell you "radar contact") can relay radar
vectors from the radar approach control which serves them.

I can buy the idea of a relayed vector, but the person who provided
the vector still must see you on radar. When the aircraft is sitting
on the ground, approach control can't see it and therefore can't
vector it.


Consider that if you take off with the heading and start to wander
into some obstacle, tower won't be able to do anything about it
(because they won't know) and neither will the approach control until
they get you on radar, which will happen at various altitudes,
depending on where you're departing from.

"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...


Consider that if you take off with the heading and start to wander
into some obstacle, tower won't be able to do anything about it
(because they won't know) and neither will the approach control

That's where the period goes. Approach may know, but may not be able to do
anything about it.

until
they get you on radar, which will happen at various altitudes,
depending on where you're departing from.


Radar coverage and "radar contact" have nothing to do with terrain
clearance, except when above the MVA and a vector is issued. Even then there
can be errors, so it's wisest to always know position relative to terrain.

I believe that there is a HUGE pilot misconception about the level of
assistance for terrain avoidance when departing a towered field.

I have learned to always request and fly ODPs when they exist, no matter
what kind of airport, or weather. It's good practice. I believe that the
same applies for SIDs as a way to reduce the risk of metal to metal contact.

Radar coverage and "radar contact" have nothing to do with terrain
clearance, except when above the MVA and a vector is issued. Even then
there can be errors, so it's wisest to always know position relative
to terrain.

Vectors can be issued below MVA in departures and missed approaches.

Otherwise, all ok. ;-)

Greg Esres wrote:

Radar coverage and "radar contact" have nothing to do with terrain
clearance, except when above the MVA and a vector is issued. Even then
there can be errors, so it's wisest to always know position relative
to terrain.

Vectors can be issued below MVA in departures and missed approaches.

Otherwise, all ok. ;-)

And, with the restriction that they must see you at or above the MVA
altitude for an adjacent higher MVA sector before they allow you to enter
that higher MVA sector. It doesn't say that in the 7110.65, though, but
when it was rased at ATPAC by pilot groups, the ATC folks said, "Well,
that is just understood."

But, I have an airspace friend at SCT who says there are truly two camps
within the controller ranks about the restrictions on vectors below MVA.

Greg Esres wrote:



I can buy the idea of a relayed vector, but the person who provided
the vector still must see you on radar.

Yes, they have to be able to see you by a certain point after departure
to be allowed to issue vectors in the takeoff clearance.


When the aircraft is sitting
on the ground, approach control can't see it and therefore can't
vector it.

Well we can see aircraft on the ground, though that has nothing to do
with anything.




Consider that if you take off with the heading and start to wander
into some obstacle, tower won't be able to do anything about it
(because they won't know) and neither will the approach control until
they get you on radar, which will happen at various altitudes,
depending on where you're departing from.

In order to get a vector off the ground you have to be seen by the radar
facility within a half mile of the airport. So you can't wander into
anything.

"Newps" wrote in message
news:UTcpb.88415$e01.290862@attbi_s02...
In order to get a vector off the ground you have to be seen by the radar
facility within a half mile of the airport. So you can't wander into
anything.


Is "proceed on course, contact departure" a vector?

Robert Henry wrote:
"Newps" wrote in message
news:UTcpb.88415$e01.290862@attbi_s02...

In order to get a vector off the ground you have to be seen by the radar
facility within a half mile of the airport. So you can't wander into
anything.



Is "proceed on course, contact departure" a vector?

No. That's a VFR tower instruction. A vector is an actual heading to fly.

"Newps" wrote in message
news:0Ydpb.87662$Tr4.226083@attbi_s03...


Is "proceed on course, contact departure" a vector?

No. That's a VFR tower instruction. A vector is an actual heading to
fly.


And if that course takes you right into a layer of granite, oh well.

"Newps" wrote in message
news:0Ydpb.87662$Tr4.226083@attbi_s03...


Robert Henry wrote:
"Newps" wrote in message
news:UTcpb.88415$e01.290862@attbi_s02...

In order to get a vector off the ground you have to be seen by the
radar
facility within a half mile of the airport. So you can't wander into
anything.



Is "proceed on course, contact departure" a vector?

No. That's a VFR tower instruction. A vector is an actual heading to
fly.

Huh!!! And all this time I thought a heading was a "heading", and a heading
and altitude instruction was a "vector".

Tom
"We have vectors, Victor!!".