No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?

"Chip Jones" wrote in message
ink.net...

Yes. It is my point that the ODP *is* included in an IFR departure
clearance unless ATC issues explicit alternate departure instructions as
part of the launch. Should ATC fail to protect for the ODP, the official
statement on the controller's operational error recert package will likely
include the sentance: "Primary cause: Controller A procedurally failed to
maintain vertical separation prior to losing lateral separation."


I agree with you. I believe that it can be clearly prudent for the pilot
to
keep ATC informed of what he intends to do, but within reason. I don't
know
that it is always reasonable for you to tell ATC that you are going to be
flying the ODP though. The controller responsible for formulating your
IFR
clearance is supposed to be a specialist in his/her airspace. He/she
should
know if an ODP is an option when you depart. If that procedure is a
threat
to another IFR aircraft, then ATC needs to eliminate the traffic threat
via
alternate instructions or not clear you. Otherwise, your IFR clearance
is
flawed (and ATC's fault).

Chip, ZTL

I spoke with both the tower and the APPCON facility following an issue I
experienced, and both held that an ODP needs to be requested by the pilot if
not issued, and will never be recommended/suggested/alluded to/etc. I think
that is a deathtrap waiting to happen, but who am I.

fwiw.

On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:57:54 -0500, "Robert Henry"
wrote:

I spoke with both the tower and the APPCON facility following an issue I
experienced, and both held that an ODP needs to be requested by the pilot if
not issued, and will never be recommended/suggested/alluded to/etc. I think
that is a deathtrap waiting to happen, but who am I.

I agree with you and would like to know which ATC facilities feel this way.
The ATC facilities with which I am familiar do NOT feel this way.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:57:54 -0500, "Robert Henry"
wrote:

I spoke with both the tower and the APPCON facility following an issue I
experienced, and both held that an ODP needs to be requested by the pilot
if
not issued, and will never be recommended/suggested/alluded to/etc. I
think
that is a deathtrap waiting to happen, but who am I.

I agree with you and would like to know which ATC facilities feel this
way.
The ATC facilities with which I am familiar do NOT feel this way.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 22:05:23 -0500, "Robert Henry"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:57:54 -0500, "Robert Henry"
wrote:

I spoke with both the tower and the APPCON facility following an issue I
experienced, and both held that an ODP needs to be requested by the pilot
if
not issued, and will never be recommended/suggested/alluded to/etc. I
think
that is a deathtrap waiting to happen, but who am I.

I agree with you and would like to know which ATC facilities feel this
way.
The ATC facilities with which I am familiar do NOT feel this way.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)



Robert,

Your response was blank. Both on my ISP and on GOOGLE. I think your
response got dropped. Could you "say again"?

Thanks.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:57:54 -0500, "Robert Henry"
wrote:




Robert,

Your response was blank. Both on my ISP and on GOOGLE. I think your
response got dropped. Could you "say again"?

Thanks.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Yeah, I'd rather not. The APPCON controller involved may have received some
"counseling" subsequent to my discussion with the supervisor about the whole
thing. It was east of the Mississippi River, if that helps.

Bob

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:08:09 -0500, "Robert Henry"
wrote:

Yeah, I'd rather not. The APPCON controller involved may have received some
"counseling" subsequent to my discussion with the supervisor about the whole
thing. It was east of the Mississippi River, if that helps.

If the problem has been taken care of, then fine. However, if the problem
has not been taken care of, then it should be for all of our sakes.

If you don't feel comfortable disclosing it here, please contact someone
who can get the controllers properly trained. Scott Dunham is one such
person. He participates in AVSIG (www.avsig.com) and, if you don't have
it, I can get you an email address for him.

You did say that this was an issue with both tower and TRACON controllers;
and you imply that you are not sure about whether they have been retrained.
Hence my concern about whether this problem will arise in the future to
affect me or someone I care about.




Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
If the problem has been taken care of, then fine. However, if the problem
has not been taken care of, then it should be for all of our sakes.

That assumes there is a problem. The way it has been explained to me is
that the rules that apply for departing IFR at a non-towered field apply in
this case, and that operating under the understanding that terrain
separation services are available when departing a towered field (especially
a VFR-only one as in my case) is just a bad one.

So from that perspective, that looks to be the way the system works, not a
system problem. Now, if the controllers here would like to jump in and
correct me, great, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

Also, I made some inquiries with some people that know, and I wrote it up
for NASA.

I will also recommend to anyone to plan the departure according to the ODP
and make sure it is requested. Flying the ODP without telling ATC about it
can create separation issues. In this case, the ODP goes right into the
arrival corridor for the field.

"Robert Henry" wrote in message news:C5fpb.9559$Re.3059@lakeread06...

I spoke with both the tower and the APPCON facility following an issue I
experienced, and both held that an ODP needs to be requested by the pilot if
not issued, and will never be recommended/suggested/alluded to/etc. I think
that is a deathtrap waiting to happen, but who am I.

fwiw.

FWIW Robert, was this in US or Canada?

Sydney