FAA Investigates American Flyers

I wrote the following after my American Flyer experience some time ago:

Subject: American Flyers
From: Bill W - MauleDriver
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:58:29 2002
My experience 7 years ago wasn't good. They only thing they do well is bill
you. They overbill if possible. Don't ever require a refund because that
will take time. Plenty of planes and CFIs but optimized for cash yield and
little else.
"Helen Woods" wrote in message
...
Anyone have any experience with American Flyers in FL? I'm looking for
someplace to finish my instrument and do a commercial rating. I'm at
wits end with broken planes, hard to find instructors, etc. at the local
FBO.

Helen

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
. com...
I wrote the following after my American Flyer experience some time ago:

Subject: American Flyers
From: Bill W - MauleDriver
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:58:29 2002
My experience 7 years ago wasn't good. They only thing they do well is
bill
you. They overbill if possible. Don't ever require a refund because that
will take time.

That sounds like most every American company I've dealt with in the last ten
years -- Customer Service is open from 9:00 AM until 4:00PM, but the
Collections Dept. is open from 5:00 AM until midnight. Typical operation
when an MBA is running the show :~)

"Tom S." wrote in message
My experience 7 years ago wasn't good. They only thing they do well is
bill
you. They overbill if possible. Don't ever require a refund because that
will take time.

That sounds like most every American company I've dealt with in the last
ten
years -- Customer Service is open from 9:00 AM until 4:00PM, but the
Collections Dept. is open from 5:00 AM until midnight. Typical operation
when an MBA is running the show :~)

Thanks for commiserating but perhaps too broad a brush. Everything about
American Flyers smelled like "produce revenue while providing the absolute
mininum in service and value". Started with a manual with out of date FARs
and 10th generation unreadable copies. Three different CFIs on 3 trips
despite assurances of a single instructor. Ended when I finished with an
overpayment for unused flight time. Whatever the process was for getting a
refund, no one there could do it and surely it would require me to return
home and do it over the phone. 10 days minimum! When I made it clear that
I wasn't walking out the door without it and started to enlist other
students to help me figure out what was going on, a refund was made. There
was nothing in dispute.... just BS.

Anyway, making money is a fine thing -- I admire it. Making money by giving
people a high quality product/service, the way the want it, is most
admirable. ATP Inc. clearly knows how to close a sale and collect a bill.
But they offer a quality package of instructional services in quality planes
with well trained instructors working well designed sylabi (whatever). What
they sell is not for everyone and every situation but it is clearly
described, delivered as promised, and done with flexibility within a tightly
controlled program. I gladly pay for that.

I went into American Flyers (Florida) with a positive expectation but caught
the stench within 10 mins. Should have trusted my instincts. I have no
problem dissing them and hope the FAA takes them down. Sometimes 'market
forces' aren't enough.

Maule Driver wrote:
Everything about American Flyers smelled like "produce revenue while
providing the absolute mininum in service and value".

I only have one experience with AF. They took over the flight school
ops from Westair at White Plains a couple of years ago (I'm not sure
why, but I suspect what was going on was the airport squezed Westair
on rent when they tore down Westair's old building and put up a fancy
new one). I took a couple of hours of in their simulator.

When I paid my bill, I was astounded when they tacked on a few extra
bucks to cover credit card transaction fees! It wasn't a whole lot of
money, but I've never heard of anybody ever doing anything like that.
I didn't even think it was legal.

On 4 Nov 2003 11:38:52 -0500, (Roy Smith) wrote in
Message-Id: :

When I paid my bill, I was astounded when they tacked on a few extra
bucks to cover credit card transaction fees! It wasn't a whole lot of
money, but I've never heard of anybody ever doing anything like that.
I didn't even think it was legal.

Since 1984, when a Truth in Lending law ban on surcharges expired,
some states have enacted laws prohibiting surcharges; see States
That Prohibit Credit Card Surcharges:

http://www.gofso.com/Premium/LE/06_l...ts.html#MOB

It is against visa/mastercard rules call visa/master card file a complaint
if you have proof send them the recipe with the surcharge they will credit
you back for it. i will not deal with any company that dose a surcharge for
taking credit card and if i find one that is charging i report them ASAP. i
take credit cards in my business i pay 0.9% + $0.10 per transaction that is
a min cost that will get me another customer that wants to use a credit card
and it also is a business cost witch at tax time helps.



"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
Maule Driver wrote:
Everything about American Flyers smelled like "produce revenue while
providing the absolute mininum in service and value".

I only have one experience with AF. They took over the flight school
ops from Westair at White Plains a couple of years ago (I'm not sure
why, but I suspect what was going on was the airport squezed Westair
on rent when they tore down Westair's old building and put up a fancy
new one). I took a couple of hours of in their simulator.

When I paid my bill, I was astounded when they tacked on a few extra
bucks to cover credit card transaction fees! It wasn't a whole lot of
money, but I've never heard of anybody ever doing anything like that.
I didn't even think it was legal.

MRQB wrote:

i will not deal with any company that dose a surcharge for
taking credit card and if i find one that is charging i report them ASAP.

Really? And in your opinion, what is the difference between that and a discount
for paying by cash or check?

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

"G.R. Patterson III"
i will not deal with any company that dose a surcharge for
taking credit card and if i find one that is charging i report them
ASAP.

Really? And in your opinion, what is the difference between that and a
discount
for paying by cash or check?

None except better salesmanship.

I asked that when I heard about that rule and the rep told me it was not
permissible to charge different amounts for cash vs. credit, so either way
was in violation of their agreement.

It is still done all the time; just about all ultra discount internet
electronics junk outfits do it. Perhaps the card issuers don't bother going
after merchants for that.

I am surprised that a supposedly reputable company tries that, it is
terrible customer relations.

After American Flyers took over Westair's training I was in the market for
training towards my instrument rating and decided to go to AF for my BFR. I
did it in just about the minimum required time for air and ground work and
the bill was a tad over $400. A friend had a nearly identical experience
with them so that must be what they charge for BFRs. Perhaps that was a
good thing, though, as that made me decide not to go there for my instrument
training.

Peter



"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


MRQB wrote:

i will not deal with any company that dose a surcharge for
taking credit card and if i find one that is charging i report them
ASAP.

Really? And in your opinion, what is the difference between that and a
discount
for paying by cash or check?

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money
prolonging
the problem.

"Roy Smith"
Everything about American Flyers smelled like "produce revenue while
providing the absolute mininum in service and value".

I only have one experience with AF....

When I paid my bill, I was astounded when they tacked on a few extra
bucks to cover credit card transaction fees! It wasn't a whole lot of
money, but I've never heard of anybody ever doing anything like that.
I didn't even think it was legal.
That's funny. That may have been the reason I paid by check and found it so
hard to get a refund. I *never* pay by check. But given a transaction fee,
I would.

You know, I can't quite justify calling them scumbags....