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#1
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![]() "Cub Driver" wrote in message ... On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 01:19:58 GMT, Maule Driver wrote: The alternative would have been something like, "KLM: we have a low fuel emergency, request diversion for immediate landing", Surely EMERGENCY is a more serious call than PAN? All the P-word does is tell everyone: shut up and listen to what I have to say. I thought P-P-P was equivalent to "MAYDAY", which (I thought??) is an abbreviation for declaring an emergency. |
#2
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"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
... "Cub Driver" wrote in message ... Surely EMERGENCY is a more serious call than PAN? All the P-word does is tell everyone: shut up and listen to what I have to say. I thought P-P-P was equivalent to "MAYDAY", which (I thought??) is an abbreviation for declaring an emergency. No, "mayday" and "pan pan" are entirely distinct. See the AIM clauses that have been cited throughout this thread. --Gary |
#3
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Matt Barrow wrote:
I thought P-P-P was equivalent to "MAYDAY", which (I thought??) is an abbreviation for declaring an emergency. I would put it this way: Both are emergencies, but P-P-P means it's not a critical situation yet. You're crossing the Atlantic and start losing a little fuel, that might be a P-P-P alert. The fuel leak grows to the point that you know you can't make it, that's definitely a Mayday. P-P-P is probably rarely used by GA pilots. But airline pilots do use it to alert ATC as to just how serious _they_ think the situation is. Perhaps this is because a full airliner emergency might have a larger affect on airport or airspace operations. (GA planes can safely land in a small grass field if they lose power... jetliners can't.) For example, remember Swiss Air 111 that caught fire and then crashed off Newfoundland before they could land? (Basically because they followed the book and circled dumping fuel... so as not to be over landing weight... but the time wasted doing that killed them all.) Anyway, their calls went something like the following, going from what they thought was "just" an urgent situation, then to life or death: 10:14PM - "Swissair 111 heavy is declaring Pan Pan Pan. We have smoke in the cockpit. Request deviate immediate right turn to a convenient place. I guess Boston..." 10:24PM - "We are declaring an Emergency. We have to land immediately." 10:30PM - crashes into the sea Best, Kev |
#4
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![]() "Kev" writes: [...] For example, remember Swiss Air 111 that caught fire and then crashed off Newfoundland before they could land? (Basically because they followed the book and circled dumping fuel... so as not to be over landing weight... but the time wasted doing that killed them all.) [...] I recall reading, probably in the official accident analysis report, that this speculation is not actually true. Something like the fire would have still consumed the cockpit by the time they'd landed, even right away, over-gross. - FChE |
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#6
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wrote in message news:
The UK R/T Manual states the following: States of Emergency are classified as follows: Distress: A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminetn danger and requiring immediate assistance. Urgency: A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance. The pilot should make the appropriate emergency call as follows: Distress: 'Mayday, Mayday, Mayday' Urgency: 'Pan. Pan, Pan'. Whatever. What pilots actually do is of far more interest. This is thin edge of the wedge stuff. And, by definition, emergency situations may require that some rules be broken. Only an idiot wants to be part of that club. But, idiots and geniuses alike experience it and I've yet to see one who frets over the minutiae of distress call protocol. moo |
#7
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Kev,
For example, remember Swiss Air 111 that caught fire and then crashed off Newfoundland before they could land? (Basically because they followed the book and circled dumping fuel... so as not to be over landing weight... but the time wasted doing that killed them all.) Not so. The accident investigation showed that the time wouldn't have been sufficient even when going for a landing immediately. That doesn't mean to say they couldn't/shouldn't have acted differently. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#8
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Thomas Borchert wrote:
Kev, For example, remember Swiss Air 111 that caught fire and then crashed off Newfoundland before they could land? (Basically because they followed the book and circled dumping fuel... so as not to be over landing weight... but the time wasted doing that killed them all.) Not so. The accident investigation showed that the time wouldn't have been sufficient even when going for a landing immediately. That doesn't mean to say they couldn't/shouldn't have acted differently. Frank, Tom, thank you for the update and correction. I should've looked up the accident report before adding that bit of melodrama. Did it turn out that it was the entertainment system wiring? I had almost gone to work for a company that designed them, and sometimes wondered how their engineers felt later on. shudder Best, Kev |
#9
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Kev,
Did it turn out that it was the entertainment system wiring? I think so. Oh, and while in this case it may have been too late, I still agree with you that less "by the book" and more quick-and-dirty makes ssense in these kinds of emergencies. OTOH, hindsight is 20-20. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
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