737 off runway, Pearson Toronto

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 01:19:58 GMT, Maule Driver
wrote:

The alternative would have been something like, "KLM: we have a low
fuel emergency, request diversion for immediate landing",

Surely EMERGENCY is a more serious call than PAN? All the P-word does
is tell everyone: shut up and listen to what I have to say.


I thought P-P-P was equivalent to "MAYDAY", which (I thought??) is an
abbreviation for declaring an emergency.

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...
"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
Surely EMERGENCY is a more serious call than PAN? All the P-word does
is tell everyone: shut up and listen to what I have to say.

I thought P-P-P was equivalent to "MAYDAY", which (I thought??) is an
abbreviation for declaring an emergency.

No, "mayday" and "pan pan" are entirely distinct. See the AIM clauses that
have been cited throughout this thread.

--Gary

Matt Barrow wrote:
I thought P-P-P was equivalent to "MAYDAY", which (I thought??) is an
abbreviation for declaring an emergency.

I would put it this way: Both are emergencies, but P-P-P means it's
not a critical situation yet. You're crossing the Atlantic and start
losing a little fuel, that might be a P-P-P alert. The fuel leak grows
to the point that you know you can't make it, that's definitely a
Mayday.

P-P-P is probably rarely used by GA pilots. But airline pilots do use
it to alert ATC as to just how serious _they_ think the situation is.
Perhaps this is because a full airliner emergency might have a larger
affect on airport or airspace operations. (GA planes can safely land
in a small grass field if they lose power... jetliners can't.)

For example, remember Swiss Air 111 that caught fire and then crashed
off Newfoundland before they could land? (Basically because they
followed the book and circled dumping fuel... so as not to be over
landing weight... but the time wasted doing that killed them all.)

Anyway, their calls went something like the following, going from what
they thought was "just" an urgent situation, then to life or death:

10:14PM - "Swissair 111 heavy is declaring Pan Pan Pan. We have smoke
in the cockpit. Request deviate immediate right turn to a convenient
place. I guess Boston..."

10:24PM - "We are declaring an Emergency. We have to land immediately."

10:30PM - crashes into the sea

Best,
Kev

"Kev" writes:

[...] For example, remember Swiss Air 111 that caught fire and then
crashed off Newfoundland before they could land? (Basically because
they followed the book and circled dumping fuel... so as not to be
over landing weight... but the time wasted doing that killed them
all.) [...]

I recall reading, probably in the official accident analysis report,
that this speculation is not actually true. Something like the fire
would have still consumed the cockpit by the time they'd landed, even
right away, over-gross.

- FChE

On 03 Aug 2005 19:25:01 -0400, (Frank Ch. Eigler)
wrote:


"Kev" writes:

[...] For example, remember Swiss Air 111 that caught fire and then
crashed off Newfoundland before they could land? (Basically because
they followed the book and circled dumping fuel... so as not to be
over landing weight... but the time wasted doing that killed them
all.) [...]

I recall reading, probably in the official accident analysis report,
that this speculation is not actually true. Something like the fire
would have still consumed the cockpit by the time they'd landed, even
right away, over-gross.

- FChE

The UK R/T Manual states the following:

States of Emergency are classified as follows:

Distress: A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminetn
danger and requiring immediate assistance.

Urgency: A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other
vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but does not
require immediate assistance.

The pilot should make the appropriate emergency call as follows:
Distress: 'Mayday, Mayday, Mayday'
Urgency: 'Pan. Pan, Pan'.

wrote in message news:
The UK R/T Manual states the following:

States of Emergency are classified as follows:

Distress: A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminetn
danger and requiring immediate assistance.

Urgency: A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other
vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but does not
require immediate assistance.

The pilot should make the appropriate emergency call as follows:
Distress: 'Mayday, Mayday, Mayday'
Urgency: 'Pan. Pan, Pan'.

Whatever. What pilots actually do is of far more interest. This is thin
edge of the wedge stuff. And, by definition, emergency situations may
require that some rules be broken. Only an idiot wants to be part of that
club. But, idiots and geniuses alike experience it and I've yet to see one
who frets over the minutiae of distress call protocol.

moo

Kev,

For example, remember Swiss Air 111 that caught fire and then crashed
off Newfoundland before they could land? (Basically because they
followed the book and circled dumping fuel... so as not to be over
landing weight... but the time wasted doing that killed them all.)


Not so. The accident investigation showed that the time wouldn't have
been sufficient even when going for a landing immediately. That doesn't
mean to say they couldn't/shouldn't have acted differently.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote:
Kev,

For example, remember Swiss Air 111 that caught fire and then crashed
off Newfoundland before they could land? (Basically because they
followed the book and circled dumping fuel... so as not to be over
landing weight... but the time wasted doing that killed them all.)

Not so. The accident investigation showed that the time wouldn't have
been sufficient even when going for a landing immediately. That doesn't
mean to say they couldn't/shouldn't have acted differently.

Frank, Tom, thank you for the update and correction. I should've
looked up the accident report before adding that bit of melodrama.

Did it turn out that it was the entertainment system wiring? I had
almost gone to work for a company that designed them, and sometimes
wondered how their engineers felt later on. shudder

Best, Kev

Kev,

Did it turn out that it was the entertainment system wiring?


I think so. Oh, and while in this case it may have been too late, I
still agree with you that less "by the book" and more quick-and-dirty
makes ssense in these kinds of emergencies. OTOH, hindsight is 20-20.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)