Washington DC airspace closing for good?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:06:32 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote in HUNIe.3569$_t.1366@okepread01::


Ha good luck with that request.

Umm.. I see what you mean. Disappointing. :-(

When you guys are done patting yourselves on the back you might address my
point that there isn't any good evidence that the ADIZ was created to reduce
"clutter".

moo

In article ,
"Happy Dog" wrote:

When you guys are done patting yourselves on the back you might address my
point that there isn't any good evidence that the ADIZ was created to reduce
"clutter".

Define "clutter"

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Happy Dog" wrote:

When you guys are done patting yourselves on the back you might address
my
point that there isn't any good evidence that the ADIZ was created to
reduce
"clutter".

Define "clutter"

From this thread:

I'm talking about radar screen clutter. Yes. I see no other rational
reason for the DC ADIZ.

and (subsequently from the same poster)

My point was that the DC ADIZ's purpose most probably is to protect
the innocent from lethal force.


Comment:

The contention (stated by a few posters here) that the OP is objecting to is
that the ADIZ is unjustified, is unworkable and, thus, is little more than a
political move to satisfy the uneducated, early-weaned emotionally
underdeveloped populace that the government has, once again, taken over
where mom and dad left off. It's a case of Transference, in the Freudian
sense. Excuses are made, for the government, suggesting that this measure
is necessary to protect pilots from themselves, solves an ATC workload
problem etc. That these claims have been shown to lack in merit does
nothing to dissuade the odd person from repeating them or claiming similar
new ones. It's crap.

moo

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:26:03 -0400, Bob Noel
wrote in
::

In article ,
"Happy Dog" wrote:

When you guys are done patting yourselves on the back you might address my
point that there isn't any good evidence that the ADIZ was created to reduce
"clutter".

Define "clutter"


In the case of the DC ADIZ, I believe it was created to restrict the
number of targets/flights within its boundaries, so that unidentified
primary radar targets will be easier to spot. Perhaps 'congestion'
would have been a more accurate word than 'clutter.'

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:26:03 -0400, Bob Noel

"Happy Dog" wrote:

When you guys are done patting yourselves on the back you might address
my
point that there isn't any good evidence that the ADIZ was created to
reduce
"clutter".

Define "clutter"

In the case of the DC ADIZ, I believe it was created to restrict the
number of targets/flights within its boundaries, so that unidentified
primary radar targets will be easier to spot. Perhaps 'congestion'
would have been a more accurate word than 'clutter.'

Where is your evidence that this is the reason behind the ADIZ?

moo

Happy Dog wrote:

In the case of the DC ADIZ, I believe it was created to restrict the
number of targets/flights within its boundaries, so that unidentified
primary radar targets will be easier to spot. Perhaps 'congestion'
would have been a more accurate word than 'clutter.'

Where is your evidence that this is the reason behind the ADIZ?

During the 9/11 investigations, several security people stated that that was the
case. They wanted to reduce the number of radar targets in the area to something
manageable if they had to intercept. A fair amount of the hearingd were
broadcast on NPR last Spring.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:aNeJe.1241$lT.705@trndny05...
Happy Dog wrote:

In the case of the DC ADIZ, I believe it was created to restrict the
number of targets/flights within its boundaries, so that unidentified
primary radar targets will be easier to spot. Perhaps 'congestion'
would have been a more accurate word than 'clutter.'

Where is your evidence that this is the reason behind the ADIZ?

During the 9/11 investigations, several security people stated that that
was the case. They wanted to reduce the number of radar targets in the
area to something manageable if they had to intercept. A fair amount of
the hearingd were broadcast on NPR last Spring.

That's it, really? "Several security people stated"? You OK with that?

moo

Happy Dog wrote:
"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:aNeJe.1241$lT.705@trndny05...

During the 9/11 investigations, several security people stated that that
was the case. They wanted to reduce the number of radar targets in the
area to something manageable if they had to intercept. A fair amount of
the hearingd were broadcast on NPR last Spring.

That's it, really? "Several security people stated"? You OK with that?

Certainly. NPR didn't state "several security people stated", they played
recordings of the hearings and identified the speakers. In other words, I heard
some of the people responsible for getting the ADIZ set up state that the
purpose was to reduce the number of radar targets and make sure that there were
no unidentified primary radar echoes.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 22:33:43 -0400, "Happy Dog"
wrote in ::

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:26:03 -0400, Bob Noel

In the case of the DC ADIZ, I believe it was created to restrict the
number of targets/flights within its boundaries, so that unidentified
primary radar targets will be easier to spot. Perhaps 'congestion'
would have been a more accurate word than 'clutter.'

Where is your evidence that this is the reason behind the ADIZ?


I have no evidence. It is purely a matter of logical deduction, a
guess.

The August FAA NPRM contains this information:

In February 2003, FAA, in consultation with DHS and other Federal
agencies, implemented a system of airspace control measures to
protect against a potential threat to the Washington, DC
Metropolitan Area. The dimensions of this protected
airspace were determined after considering such factors as the
speed of likely suspect aircraft, minimum launch time and the
speed of intercept aircraft. After extensive coordination among
Federal agencies, two airspace areas were implemented. The outer
area, which closely mimics the current Washington Tri-area Class B
airspace, is called an Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) ...


I suppose one could research the original FAA ADIZ NPRM and find the
reason for it stated the
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2002/sfar94.html
or in its extension:
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsite..._extension.pdf

I wasn't able to find the reason for the DC ADIZ in those documents,
hence the guess.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 22:33:43 -0400, "Happy Dog"
wrote in ::

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:26:03 -0400, Bob Noel

In the case of the DC ADIZ, I believe it was created to restrict the
number of targets/flights within its boundaries, so that unidentified
primary radar targets will be easier to spot. Perhaps 'congestion'
would have been a more accurate word than 'clutter.'

Where is your evidence that this is the reason behind the ADIZ?


I have no evidence. It is purely a matter of logical deduction, a
guess.

Thank you for your research. But, it doesnt support your claim. In fact,
the paragrapgh you quote is just plain silly. "Minimun launch time"? Did
you read this crap before dropping to your knees?

I repost the following to invite defenders of it.:

The August FAA NPRM contains this information:

In February 2003, FAA, in consultation with DHS and other Federal
agencies, implemented a system of airspace control measures to
protect against a potential threat to the Washington, DC
Metropolitan Area. The dimensions of this protected
airspace were determined after considering such factors as the
speed of likely suspect aircraft, minimum launch time and the
speed of intercept aircraft. After extensive coordination among
Federal agencies, two airspace areas were implemented. The outer
area, which closely mimics the current Washington Tri-area Class B
airspace, is called an Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) ...


I suppose one could research the original FAA ADIZ NPRM and find the
reason for it stated the
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2002/sfar94.html
or in its extension:
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsite..._extension.pdf

I wasn't able to find the reason for the DC ADIZ in those documents,
hence the guess.

Hence shut up.

moo