Washington DC airspace closing for good?

Hee Hee,
See Jose you are trying to re invent the wheel think simple. The ADIZ
would be no more, is that not your goal? Tracking for every plane in the new
ClassBplus, is that not the gov's goal? Sometimes you have to give alittle
to get alittle. I don't see all restrictions disappearing,..so maybe we can
give to a ClassB idea,..of course it like all else would require pilots
following the rules.
But as I see it not only is there going to be a permanent ADIZ but all
these pilots that can not follow the rules are going to make it into an
absolute NO FLY ZONE. Yeah yeah I know the ones that actually busted it on
there on is not really a large large number. But think about it, IF
something does happen in that area and the reason it happened was because
"powers that be" could not make a shoot down order in time because they were
not sure it was a putz from PA that was lost or threat.....then GA probably
would not be flying at all.
Compromise is always the best way to find a solution, if our side is
just as hard headed as the other side guess what will happen..more and more
restrictions. The other side is the gov and they will win...our option is to
compromise and say hey we understand but listen to this solution, then just
maybe the gov will say "hey we can live with that!" IMHO of course.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech


"Jose" wrote in message
.. .
But see my answer to the problem would be to make the entire area minus
Class A , into a super class"B". The normal rules of what Class B would
be re-defined for the ADIZ area, which is very very possible and very
very simple. We could call it Class B plus!!!

How does this materially differ from simply eliminating the FRZ and
keeping the ADIZ (other than that the airspace boundaries would now
coincide with class B)? IF you redefine the rules for B+ airspace, you
can redefine them in accordance with the ADIZ rules, and all we've done is
change the name.

It does get rid of the FRZ, but the justification for the ADIZ =is= the
FRZ. With no FRZ, there's no need for B+ either.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no
universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

The ADIZ would be no more, is that not your goal? Tracking for every plane in the new ClassBplus, is that not the gov's goal?

The FRZ would be no more. That is (part of) my goal. The ADIZ going
away is also my goal, but I'm not sure you've done more than just
renaming it. We already have all aircraft in the 30nm ring requring
transponders, this would add a discrete code and clearance requirement;
clearance that can be denied at whim.

I don't see how we could sell this as =sufficient=, and it certainly
isn't =necessary=, for any defense purposes. If we are arguing that the
current or proposed rules are not appropriate, it makes little sense to
propose an alternative that is also unjustified.

I agree that mentioning that class B aircraft are also tracked is worth
doing. But letting untracked aircraft under the shelf does not weaken
the security of DC in any appreciable way; that's the whole point of my
comment to the FAA.

Am I missing something in your proposal?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose,
I think you most definitely are missing something, a simple fact that
something will exist in the DC area if we like it or not. So why not make it
something we could be alittle bit happier with. You and others may think
there is no threat, but I assure you as a military man who has watched very
carefully how these "critters" operate, it's a very real threat. A small
plane in itself may not carry enough to do alot of damage, but in that area
it would not take alot of damage to do what the bad guys want...to show they
can hit wherever they want when they want.
Our only option is a compromise, and there is no way that the gov is
gonna give up the transponder requirement. A Class B plus is the only idea I
can come up with that addresses both sides..not just one. And that is alot
of the problem , people only seeing one side. Does the whole thing suck? Yep
it sure does! But unless we can get the Feds to find and kick out approx.
11million illegals it is a threat. And then we have the threat of the legal
ones that are out to kill us as well. If we could keep the bad guys out of
this country, then we would not need the restrictions.
There will be something over DC, wouldn't it be better if we actually
had some say in it? You will not if you do not realize there will be
transponder tracking in that area.
If we want the Founding Fathers freedoms given back to us all, then all of
us need to stop voting for the same damn fools we continue to put in office
just because they "say" they are a Dem or a Repub. They ALL care about a
vote, not your freedom. We must bend , so they appear to have done something
(for their vote). We don't bend we will have less..until Americans get their
head out of their butts and vote the entire 2 parties out of Washington.
What you want requires changing the entire government, what I propose
gets along with the current one. See the difference? It's something we may
not like, but it is the way the chips are stacked at this point in time.
they have the advantage, in one room they say hey lets do this it is voted
on in minutes (when they want to!!! ) and it is done..no fly or whatever!
For the country to get rid of all the crooks will take alot of old timers
dying out that can not see the problems of their parties. Not to mention
those with the mindset of I am voting Democrat because my Daddy his Daddy
and his Daddy were all Democrats all have to die out. Then maybe in another
75-100 years the government will really change, as long as no more like them
come into play mind you.
So see who has the advantage? See why we have to bend? And you know what
will happen if we don't? All those little things that the public let their
rights go away alittle on, because it did not effect them....sooner or later
it becomes a right that does effect you. Then it's to late the downhill
slide has started. Just say Thank You Mr. Lincoln!!!!
A majority of Americans do feel aircraft as a real threat , and the
majority of votes wins that argument. They listen to the vote..so you must
bend or not be heard at all.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

I think we are off a bit when we assume this has anything to do with
votes.
I think this has much more to do with personal fear then anything else.
Let me pose this question and then provide my answer. Given the same
circumstances and the politicians of 30 years ago, would we have put in
to
place such restrictions. I say no. 30 years ago, a large majority of
politicians (including a majority or Presidents), were used to allowing
themselves to be in harms way as the price of freedom. This generation
of
politicians is the generation of deferments and special privileges that
got the out of military service and harms way (obviously notable
exceptions
i.e. Powell, McCain, Kerry). And what does the ADIZ protect? Their
Skins.
Pure and simple.
This fear is never discussed though. Instead there is this implicit
need to
protect our capital over every other city in the country. Its ironic
that
there is no longer an ADIZ over Manhattan, where a majority of the Sept
11th
deaths occurred, but here in DC, we seem to need one (no disrespect
meant to
family's of those killed in the Pentagon).
We have, to a large extent, lost our backbone in this country. We have
no
qualms about sending our poor into a war over oil, but refuse to allow
our rich and well connected to be at the slightest bit of risk at the
behest
of personal freedom.
One last thing...I'll bet if John M is elected President, the ADIZ will
disappear into thin air.

-BC

Given the same
circumstances and the politicians of 30 years ago, would we have put in
to place such restrictions. I say no.

Change it to 50 years ago and I say yes. The Japanese internment camps
were an even more blatant disregard for basic freedoms.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"bravocharlie" wrote in message
oups.com...
This generation
of
politicians is the generation of deferments and special privileges that
got the out of military service and harms way (obviously notable
exceptions
i.e. Powell, McCain, Kerry).

Kerry tried to get deferments (three times) and failed, then volunteered for
what he though was safe duty (Navy), then tried again to get safe duty (SB's
at the time were coastal).

At least find out what you're talking about and don't just rely on the MSM.

Geez...I certainly didn't want to open that up again.
I'll capitulate this. The right-wing establishment has succeeded in
making it conventional
wisdom that Kerry was a coward. No need to rub it in.

-BC

That is a sentiment worthy of being included in the comments to NPRM.
Can you draft it as such?

It may be true that a compromise is better than losing the battle
completely, but we are not negotiating here. We don't get to say "yes"
or "no".

Rather, we are making a point - that point being that restrictions in
the DC area do nothing to enhance security and do a lot to adversely
affect pilots and those they deal with. This point needs to be made
clearly and convincingly.

I assure you as a military man who has watched very carefully how these "critters" operate, it's a very real threat.

Is it a threat that can actually be defended against? I think not.

...A small plane in itself may not carry enough to do alot of damage, but in that area it would not take alot of damage to do what the bad guys want...to show they can hit wherever they want when they want.

I can think up a hundred scenarios of this nature, and I'm not even a
terrorist. For example, dropping a stick of dynamite down a gas
station's storage tank, coordinated over a hundred gas stations, would
make the same point. How easy is it for a terrorist to get a job
pumping gas? There isn't a good way of defending against this either
without virtually erasing the constitution first (after which it no
longer matters).

They ALL care about a vote, not your freedom. We must bend...

but not bend over.

Bending comes into play when we get to choose among alternatives - not
when we show (or show up) justification for alternatives.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose I do agree with a whole lot of what you say, but you have to understand
you are getting to choose. You can choose to haggle , or you can choose to
say we don't need it and you will get nowhere.
As for the won't meet the standards of the world ICAO for Class
B,....SO! We don't need anyones approval for something we consider to be in
our nations defense. Sometimes we have to make a rule for us, this would be
one of those cases.
It would take alot more than just a no fly or ADIZ to make it effective,
it would include closing our borders to illegals, and kicking the ones here
out. That is this nations greatest threat. If no "bad guys" are here, then I
am sure we could all agree none of this other would be necessary at all. But
we can't get either party to do what is basically there job...defend the
borders.
And yes Larry I realize what you are saying about the FAA and all with
the final say, and not Congress. That is the way they HOPE it goes. If
enough pressure from the right people,VOTERS, and in the right manner is
applied then Congress will in fact make the ruling change themselves.
My ClassBplus plan may not be perfect, but it is the only logical idea I
have heard. I would love to hear more! But any idea that you can tell the
American people that there is no threat and you are in a dreamworld and will
get nowhere very quickly. Acknowledge a small threat, and bend a hair! I can
come up with about 100 things to do in a C-150 that would shut this nation
down. I will not post nor discuss them , but you can be assured I am not the
only one that has thought of them. But in case some nut hasn't I am not
going to give him any ideas.
YEP I said him, and a islamic him at that...not the 85 year old grandma
getting strip searched at the airport!!!!Jose you made a good statement
about what happened to the Japanese here during WWII. But I am afraid we are
so worried about doing THAT again that we are not doing what we should be
doing. We should be watching them like Hawks, as the Brits can attest to. If
we are to PC to do that to defend ourselves it shows how soft we have
become. Soft equals vunerable....and our citizens are wayyyyyyy to soft.
So like I have said, my idea is a compromise and the only one I have
seen here. It's alot more complicated than just flying around DC, there are
lots and lots of factors that all add up. Seems some of us are to focused on
looking straight ahead at this problem and not the 360 degree view that is
required to really comprehend it. We must bend, we must understand, and we
must realize that some old sets of "how things are" will have to be changed,
and yep that may include some orginizations rule of airspace definition.
But if someone can come up with any idea without putting the "don't
think it's needed" on it, hey let's hear it. Any letter with the phrase
"don't think it's needed" will be immediately put in File 6..the trashcan.

Patrick