Washington DC airspace closing for good?

It may be true that a compromise is better than losing the battle
completely, but we are not negotiating here. We don't get to say "yes"
or "no".

Rather, we are making a point - that point being that restrictions in
the DC area do nothing to enhance security and do a lot to adversely
affect pilots and those they deal with. This point needs to be made
clearly and convincingly.

I assure you as a military man who has watched very carefully how these "critters" operate, it's a very real threat.

Is it a threat that can actually be defended against? I think not.

...A small plane in itself may not carry enough to do alot of damage, but in that area it would not take alot of damage to do what the bad guys want...to show they can hit wherever they want when they want.

I can think up a hundred scenarios of this nature, and I'm not even a
terrorist. For example, dropping a stick of dynamite down a gas
station's storage tank, coordinated over a hundred gas stations, would
make the same point. How easy is it for a terrorist to get a job
pumping gas? There isn't a good way of defending against this either
without virtually erasing the constitution first (after which it no
longer matters).

They ALL care about a vote, not your freedom. We must bend...

but not bend over.

Bending comes into play when we get to choose among alternatives - not
when we show (or show up) justification for alternatives.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose I do agree with a whole lot of what you say, but you have to understand
you are getting to choose. You can choose to haggle , or you can choose to
say we don't need it and you will get nowhere.
As for the won't meet the standards of the world ICAO for Class
B,....SO! We don't need anyones approval for something we consider to be in
our nations defense. Sometimes we have to make a rule for us, this would be
one of those cases.
It would take alot more than just a no fly or ADIZ to make it effective,
it would include closing our borders to illegals, and kicking the ones here
out. That is this nations greatest threat. If no "bad guys" are here, then I
am sure we could all agree none of this other would be necessary at all. But
we can't get either party to do what is basically there job...defend the
borders.
And yes Larry I realize what you are saying about the FAA and all with
the final say, and not Congress. That is the way they HOPE it goes. If
enough pressure from the right people,VOTERS, and in the right manner is
applied then Congress will in fact make the ruling change themselves.
My ClassBplus plan may not be perfect, but it is the only logical idea I
have heard. I would love to hear more! But any idea that you can tell the
American people that there is no threat and you are in a dreamworld and will
get nowhere very quickly. Acknowledge a small threat, and bend a hair! I can
come up with about 100 things to do in a C-150 that would shut this nation
down. I will not post nor discuss them , but you can be assured I am not the
only one that has thought of them. But in case some nut hasn't I am not
going to give him any ideas.
YEP I said him, and a islamic him at that...not the 85 year old grandma
getting strip searched at the airport!!!!Jose you made a good statement
about what happened to the Japanese here during WWII. But I am afraid we are
so worried about doing THAT again that we are not doing what we should be
doing. We should be watching them like Hawks, as the Brits can attest to. If
we are to PC to do that to defend ourselves it shows how soft we have
become. Soft equals vunerable....and our citizens are wayyyyyyy to soft.
So like I have said, my idea is a compromise and the only one I have
seen here. It's alot more complicated than just flying around DC, there are
lots and lots of factors that all add up. Seems some of us are to focused on
looking straight ahead at this problem and not the 360 degree view that is
required to really comprehend it. We must bend, we must understand, and we
must realize that some old sets of "how things are" will have to be changed,
and yep that may include some orginizations rule of airspace definition.
But if someone can come up with any idea without putting the "don't
think it's needed" on it, hey let's hear it. Any letter with the phrase
"don't think it's needed" will be immediately put in File 6..the trashcan.

Patrick

If no "bad guys" are here, then I am sure we could all agree none of this other would be necessary at all.

"bad guys" != "non-citizens".

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I can come up with about 100 things to do in a C-150 that would shut this nation down.

How many can you think of that =require= a C-150?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I can think of lots and lots, both requiring and not requiring the use of
any aircraft...all would pretty much shut the capital down. Dangers are most
definitely by more than just the air. And for the most part most of the bad
guys are non-citizens..but sad to say we have our own little "moles" just
like the Brits had in their recent attacks. IMHO we have not moved as fast
as we need to to get rid of the vermin.
9/11 was a very sucessful air attack, if the attack had been like the
OKC bombing, I would guess they would stop Uhaul trucks and such at the DC
limits. Just the way they think. Look at the useless bag checks on NYC
subways now, it's reason is so you "feel" safer, but it isn't doing anything
.. But New Yorkers are lining up letting the cops rummage through there
belongings, for what otherwise would be an illegal search. Go Figure huh!
Shoot for the "if our borders were secure then DC would be
secure",..that'll ruffle their feathers! Red tapers hate common sense!

Patrick
"Jose" wrote in message
. ..
I can come up with about 100 things to do in a C-150 that would shut this
nation down.

How many can you think of that =require= a C-150?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no
universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

IMHO we have not moved as fast as we need to to get rid of the vermin.

.... and how would you do that? First you have to identify the vermin,
knowing that they look just like you and me. Some are citizens, and
some citizens "look foreign". So, you have to pry into the private
lives of many innocent people. Like you.

This would be unacceptable.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose,
well I am not the FBI but I would just have to guess they already have
some great ideas of who the vermin is, and no they do not look like me I
have not seen a Scot blow up anything in the name of Islam yet If the
Islamic cleric is preaching violence I would say that's a dern good place to
start.And they already have the Not To Patriot Act to use to find whomever
whenever. And even with all of that we can't find 11 million illegals? HAHA
Sometimes you wonder if any of us has enough sense to get out of bed !
Searching Grandma is NOT going to find a terrorist, but the chances increase
if you search Abdul. But of course if we do not stop them at the border then
it will all be a waste of time anyway, cause they will keep right on coming!

Patrick

"Jose" wrote in message
.. .
IMHO we have not moved as fast as we need to to get rid of the vermin.

... and how would you do that? First you have to identify the vermin,
knowing that they look just like you and me. Some are citizens, and some
citizens "look foreign". So, you have to pry into the private lives of
many innocent people. Like you.

This would be unacceptable.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no
universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Searching Grandma is NOT going to find a terrorist

But if we let it be known that we won't search Grandma, then somehow
Grandma will be the bomb. Terrorists aren't dumb.

But of course if we do not stop them at the border...

Even if we do, the ideas will cross the border and infiltrate our society.

We're getting off topic here though.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

W P Dixon wrote:

But New Yorkers are lining up letting the cops rummage
through there belongings, for what otherwise would be an illegal search.

No more illegal than searching airline passengers stuff. As the mayor says, you
don't want to be searched, that's fine. Don't ride the subway.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Yes you are so correct George..what should be illegal searches are the norm.
And the sheeple do not complain, that being the case can we not all realize
the difficulty of telling the public at large the ADIZ is not needed? I just
think it would be impossible without getting some "critter" folk onboard a
Class Bplus to give the false sense of security and like I said it appears
that the Gov has done something to protect the voters. Not the small number
of pilot voters but the public at large voters.
The people DO have the power , but it is the larger public not a small
group. If you and I stop taking commercial flights because we feel the
searches are against our Constitutional freedom nobody cares..if 95% of the
flying public did the same it would have impact.
It will take the larger group to make a difference in the ADIZ , not
just a few of us. Thus the need for a petition signed not just by us
aviation nuts but the public ...as many as we could possibly get. If the
powers that be saw the public at large thought it was a waste of time and
money and thought more about their freedom to fly with friends if they so
chose ,..then that is how the red tape would see it as well.
It's a hard row to hoe when the public has very little concern over
their own rights as a whole. A letter signed by 100,000 pilots would get as
much attention as me going in the meeting and singing "Zippidy Doo Dah"..I'd
get a weird look and they would move right along and do what they plan on
doing anyway. What a shame too! I have such a lovely singing voice!!!!

Patrick

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:0YSJe.1665$lT.1300@trndny05...
No more illegal than searching airline passengers stuff. As the mayor
says, you don't want to be searched, that's fine. Don't ride the subway.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.